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Post by dudweiser on Apr 4, 2018 18:40:12 GMT
I just got my first Octavius and am now deciding if I want to evolve it and try to use my 5* Mort meld card to meld something onto it. Should I try to meld something? if so, what skill?
I have a Rec 2 Mythril Drone and a Revive Fafnir I could use. Otherwise I just have normal recycle 1 available.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Post by brainstorm813 on Apr 4, 2018 19:27:06 GMT
I just got my first Octavius and am now deciding if I want to evolve it and try to use my 5* Mort meld card to meld something onto it. Should I try to meld something? if so, what skill? I have a Rec 2 Mythril Drone and a Revive Fafnir I could use. Otherwise I just have normal recycle 1 available. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Recycle 2, Frost Armour, Shatter Soul.
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Post by NFS✪Grandfather on Apr 4, 2018 19:46:20 GMT
Shater Soul meld is the best meld for Octavius ONLY if you have shater soul rune, if dont have forget on that. Recycle 2 is second best meld (or first if dont count shater soul), and the reason why Recycle 2 is better than revive is that you cant revive reviver, so if your Octa with revive dies he can be revived back in play. Revive comes as 3rd best (or second depends on opinions). Thats your only melds you should try.
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Post by creepyduck on Apr 5, 2018 9:02:57 GMT
I got yolo meld octavius rec2 after get it from ultima chest boost. How lucky i am.
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Post by dendeze on Apr 5, 2018 9:30:06 GMT
Shater Soul meld is the best meld for Octavius ONLY if you have shater soul rune, if dont have forget on that. Recycle 2 is second best meld (or first if dont count shater soul), and the reason why Recycle 2 is better than revive is that you cant revive reviver, so if your Octa with revive dies he can be revived back in play. Revive comes as 3rd best (or second depends on opinions). Thats your only melds you should try. Just curious, why would someone want oct revive? Aint that really bad? Meaning he can't be revived himself only recycled and with that timer ? Or only when you have that equipment skill that 'switches' timers ?
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 5, 2018 14:09:44 GMT
Shater Soul meld is the best meld for Octavius ONLY if you have shater soul rune, if dont have forget on that. Recycle 2 is second best meld (or first if dont count shater soul), and the reason why Recycle 2 is better than revive is that you cant revive reviver, so if your Octa with revive dies he can be revived back in play. Revive comes as 3rd best (or second depends on opinions). Thats your only melds you should try. Just curious, why would someone want oct revive? Aint that really bad? Meaning he can't be revived himself only recycled and with that timer ? Or only when you have that equipment skill that 'switches' timers ? he is still very survivable, so your revive will last a long on the field. He also has a decent chance of killing a paragon before triggering revive. As grandfather said, rec2 is better due to longer timer issues. Any attack building skill (barring bloodlust) could be a good evolve on him. I got counter, which is really annoying against capricorn. Another direct damage skill, like assasinate could work well. Voodoo seems really good too, you can stick him on the far right and not worry as much about all the rage he causes! I accidentally used my mortii meld card ages ago (didn't lock it down!!!!!), it was a hard felt mistake at the time, but now you have reminded me of it again the pain returns Soul shatter and work on getting the rune is still worth it. Rec2 is fantastic too and potentially frees up space for different support or attack card. Anything else as a meld seems pointless in comparison
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 22:39:00 GMT
Just curious, why would someone want oct revive? Aint that really bad? Meaning he can't be revived himself only recycled and with that timer ? Or only when you have that equipment skill that 'switches' timers ? he is still very survivable, so your revive will last a long on the field. He also has a decent chance of killing a paragon before triggering revive. As grandfather said, rec2 is better due to longer timer issues. Any attack building skill (barring bloodlust) could be a good evolve on him. I got counter, which is really annoying against capricorn. Another direct damage skill, like assasinate could work well. Voodoo seems really good too, you can stick him on the far right and not worry as much about all the rage he causes! I accidentally used my mortii meld card ages ago (didn't lock it down!!!!!), it was a hard felt mistake at the time, but now you have reminded me of it again the pain returns Soul shatter and work on getting the rune is still worth it. Rec2 is fantastic too and potentially frees up space for different support or attack card. Anything else as a meld seems pointless in comparison Regretfully Voodoo is processed BEFORE Bombard even if it is the 4th skill. My Octavius evolved with Voodoo. Me so happy. Than I found out Bombard simply turns up your opponents rage after the voodoo rune turned it down. I wrote a ticket to IGG about that out of pure frustration.
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Post by zamock on Apr 5, 2018 23:57:36 GMT
he is still very survivable, so your revive will last a long on the field. He also has a decent chance of killing a paragon before triggering revive. As grandfather said, rec2 is better due to longer timer issues. Any attack building skill (barring bloodlust) could be a good evolve on him. I got counter, which is really annoying against capricorn. Another direct damage skill, like assasinate could work well. Voodoo seems really good too, you can stick him on the far right and not worry as much about all the rage he causes! I accidentally used my mortii meld card ages ago (didn't lock it down!!!!!), it was a hard felt mistake at the time, but now you have reminded me of it again the pain returns Soul shatter and work on getting the rune is still worth it. Rec2 is fantastic too and potentially frees up space for different support or attack card. Anything else as a meld seems pointless in comparison Regretfully Voodoo is processed BEFORE Bombard even if it is the 4th skill. My Octavius evolved with Voodoo. Me so happy. Than I found out Bombard simply turns up your opponents rage after the voodoo rune turned it down. I wrote a ticket to IGG about that out of pure frustration. Few days ago i was discussing with a guild mate whether rage locking skills would be best used before your turn or after. Common sense makes us think is better to rage lock AFTER(last action) your turn. It turns out that mathematically both actions have the same impact rage-wise Follow this two situations: 1) Your opponent has 50 rage and your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER they attack.Your voodoo procs last and takes away 10 rage. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50 + 50-10) 2) Your opponent has 50 rage, your voodoo creature attack him in the beginning of turn taking 10 rage away, your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER the attack. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50-10+50) The only situation where rage locking BEFORE your turn will have no effect is when opponent has zero rage. Rage locking AFTER will always have an impact.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 6, 2018 12:08:46 GMT
Few days ago i was discussing with a guild mate whether rage locking skills would be best used before your turn or after. Common sense makes us think is better to rage lock AFTER(last action) your turn. It turns out that mathematically both actions have the same impact rage-wise Follow this two situations: 1) Your opponent has 50 rage and your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER they attack.Your voodoo procs last and takes away 10 rage. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50 + 50-10) 2) Your opponent has 50 rage, your voodoo creature attack him in the beginning of turn taking 10 rage away, your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER the attack. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50-10+50) The only situation where rage locking BEFORE your turn will have no effect is when opponent has zero rage. Rage locking AFTER will always have an impact. you are missing a critical part in your deduction - the rage bar cannot 'overfill'. You will generate more rage if you first remove rage, then add. AFTER is clearly the only useful method of rage control.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 14:05:31 GMT
Few days ago i was discussing with a guild mate whether rage locking skills would be best used before your turn or after. Common sense makes us think is better to rage lock AFTER(last action) your turn. It turns out that mathematically both actions have the same impact rage-wise Follow this two situations: 1) Your opponent has 50 rage and your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER they attack.Your voodoo procs last and takes away 10 rage. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50 + 50-10) 2) Your opponent has 50 rage, your voodoo creature attack him in the beginning of turn taking 10 rage away, your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER the attack. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50-10+50) The only situation where rage locking BEFORE your turn will have no effect is when opponent has zero rage. Rage locking AFTER will always have an impact. you are missing a critical part in your deduction - the rage bar cannot 'overfill'. You will generate more rage if you first remove rage, then add. AFTER is clearly the only useful method of rage control. Besides that. Octavius generates more rage than you ever can reduce with a L10 voodoo rune
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Post by zamock on Apr 8, 2018 1:42:57 GMT
Few days ago i was discussing with a guild mate whether rage locking skills would be best used before your turn or after. Common sense makes us think is better to rage lock AFTER(last action) your turn. It turns out that mathematically both actions have the same impact rage-wise Follow this two situations: 1) Your opponent has 50 rage and your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER they attack.Your voodoo procs last and takes away 10 rage. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50 + 50-10) 2) Your opponent has 50 rage, your voodoo creature attack him in the beginning of turn taking 10 rage away, your creatures generates 50 rage AFTER the attack. Your opponent will not trigger his hero skill next turn. (50-10+50) The only situation where rage locking BEFORE your turn will have no effect is when opponent has zero rage. Rage locking AFTER will always have an impact. you are missing a critical part in your deduction - the rage bar cannot 'overfill'. You will generate more rage if you first remove rage, then add. AFTER is clearly the only useful method of rage control. You are saying i will generate more rage if i first remove? That does not seem logical. I know the rage bar can't overfill. Could you explain a little better? Creatures won't generate more rage just because they removed first. They always generate the same rage(unless a critical or other damage upping skills come in play)
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Post by zamock on Apr 8, 2018 1:46:02 GMT
you are missing a critical part in your deduction - the rage bar cannot 'overfill'. You will generate more rage if you first remove rage, then add. AFTER is clearly the only useful method of rage control. Besides that. Octavius generates more rage than you ever can reduce with a L10 voodoo rune I was talking in a more general way. Not specifically the Octavius case, but yes, a voodoo rune will never be able to control its rage generation.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 9, 2018 15:38:58 GMT
Yes, its simple. If a creature generates 50 rage and voodoo removes 10, it will generate 40 total rage - no matter which order they play.
That works if the enemy hero has more than 10 rage but less than 50. You covered the <10 case, so I assume you understand that part.
Now, if the enemy hero has say 70 rage, voodoo first will reduce the rage to 60, then the 50 attack rage will push the rage to 100 - so generating a total of 30 rage. If voodoo acts after the attack rage, the attack rage pushes the hero rage to 100, then voodoo reduces it to 90 - so a total of 20 rage gained.
The key part is each action adds or removes rage individually, so if the creature will generate more rage than it takes to fill the opponents rage meter - removing rage after will always generate less rage in total. If rage is removed and then added, the creature will generate between [40,50] rage, or fill the rage meter (so has an actual rage of [0,50]). If rage is removed after adding, the creature will generate between [-10,40] rage (-10 if the rage meter is full before the creature acts) and will always, at most, leave the enemy with 90 rage. . Your original example was an edge case, if you had started with 51 rage in your example you would see the difference. Hopefully you can see the difference now.
In this example the creature is still generating far more rage than voodoo rune can reduce - but if said creature is placed on the far right then they will not trigger the enemy hero skill, negating the need to play a rage controller to its right.
In general, basic attacks occur after skills - so voodoo triggers first. This might be what you are thinking about.
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Post by Dementia on Apr 9, 2018 18:19:06 GMT
Rec2 is best choice. But my revive Octa with revive rune has saved my rear many times
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Post by zamock on Apr 9, 2018 19:33:40 GMT
Yes, its simple. If a creature generates 50 rage and voodoo removes 10, it will generate 40 total rage - no matter which order they play. That works if the enemy hero has more than 10 rage but less than 50. You covered the <10 case, so I assume you understand that part. Now, if the enemy hero has say 70 rage, voodoo first will reduce the rage to 60, then the 50 attack rage will push the rage to 100 - so generating a total of 30 rage. If voodoo acts after the attack rage, the attack rage pushes the hero rage to 100, then voodoo reduces it to 90 - so a total of 20 rage gained. The key part is each action adds or removes rage individually, so if the creature will generate more rage than it takes to fill the opponents rage meter - removing rage after will always generate less rage in total. If rage is removed and then added, the creature will generate between [40,50] rage, or fill the rage meter (so has an actual rage of [0,50]). If rage is removed after adding, the creature will generate between [-10,40] rage (-10 if the rage meter is full before the creature acts) and will always, at most, leave the enemy with 90 rage. . Your original example was an edge case, if you had started with 51 rage in your example you would see the difference. Hopefully you can see the difference now. In this example the creature is still generating far more rage than voodoo rune can reduce - but if said creature is placed on the far right then they will not trigger the enemy hero skill, negating the need to play a rage controller to its right. In general, basic attacks occur after skills - so voodoo triggers first. This might be what you are thinking about. I understand the situation pictured by you. Indeed you are right about it. However, there isn't much cards in DH that can generate 50 rage in one action. Octavius would be one of the few, so we could apply your thoughts to Octavius case, but not for the rest of viable Voodoo melds. Nobody would meld voodoo in octavius anyway. Things got a little messed up because i replied originally to Octavius voodoo evolving. My intention was not specifically this case. If you read back my first post i said " creatures will generate 50 rage", not singular. My example was not so edgy, as it is far more common to more than one creature generate 50 rage or less. I can say from my own experience that a Voodoo QT generates less rage than it takes away. If you put two or three in you deck it can really make a difference. I did not say voodoo before attacking is better than after(you saw that in my first post). I just wanted to show that there are many situations where "voodooing" before action can still be useful. Players tend to disconsider that.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 10, 2018 12:34:45 GMT
Right, I see your perspective now. You are still wrong about it being the same though - the later the voodoo is played the better for you it is. The same arguments apply, but now the (-10) rage can be placed anywhere in your (50) rage generation. Those extra parameters do not actually change the overall picture and edge cases much though. It should still be clear that the later the rage reduction acts, the greater the chance it will reduce the total rage generated. 0 rage and overfilling rage cases are still the same. The only cases where it will mathematically not matter is when you have more than 10 rage to start and the rage you add does not fill the rage bar. The biggest factor for skill control will be having voodoo reduce rage by less than your basic attack.
Players are not 'discounting' it, we are not generally using the odd voodoo crit to constantly reduce the overall rage generation. It is used to stop hero skills triggering - which makes it need to be a late action. A little less rage generation is OK, but not something worthly of a meld investment. You can consider it a bonus on top of the situations where the rage reduction does something useful. It might occur on occasion that a voodooer on the left limits the total rage generated enough to just stop the rage bar filling - but given the limitations of its rage reduction, this scenario is fairly uncoommon.
As for vQT, I'm currently melding one (for guild maps though, just a little more optimisation). I can say for sure that its relative effectiveness when compared to rQT will be entirely dependant on the immunity rating of the opposition team, but in most cases it will be less in total I expect. If you are using voodoo to nullify the creatures own rage generation, then why use QT for this anyway? You can use gorgons and spirit sirens for this that do more damage and offer good utility. Retreat and recycle provide much better utility than voodoo in most circumstances for QT, but you migtht meld one or two while you work on retreats as a decent stopgap. The one place I see for a bunch of vQTs working well is with taskmistress, or anything else which gives you constant board control.
Voodoo Oct would be a 'lucky evolve', or not so much since it acts before bombard. Rage control with voodoo uses the rune, so voodoo1 is as effective as voodoo10 for this.
I wonder why Octavius might be heading the conversation here ^^^^^^^^
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Post by zamock on Apr 12, 2018 4:35:05 GMT
Now we are more aligned in thoughts, although there is still some gaps. I think VQT is still an extremely undervalued meld. Of course it's better to have Aquarius and Hanzo as rage control. But i am not so sure about RQT over VQT. You are totally right about its effectiveness being dependent on immunity prevalence, but, to be honest, it seems everyone today are protecting themselves against retreat(high tier). So it makes RQT less valuable, as it has to hit hero to drain rage. VQT don't have those problems(mostly). Gorgon and Spirit Sirens have retreat/disposal/instakill weaknesses((s)Revive Spirit Siren is a lot better either). Too vulnerable to be useful in top arena or tournament decks. On the other hand, QTs has the great immunity + dodge combo that can be evolved. Her osmose ability pairs up with voodoo to take away 30 rage at max(Concealed strike lvl 10 Hanzo takes away 50 at max). It's a cheap and efficient way to do rage controlling. You would be surprised how many times the enemy has full rage and my leftmost VQT does her voodoo thing and all my subsequent cards miss their target(Groups Tactics) thus not activating enemy hero skill next turn. . Recycle QT is even better investment to my eyes. I have Recycle 2 and recycle 1 QTs too. Love them. I will do RQT for the sake of utility but i don't miss RQTs that much in my decks. I guess i just got used to not having them. Great debate though ^^
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Post by haohao96 on Apr 12, 2018 9:17:47 GMT
Now we are more aligned in thoughts, although there is still some gaps. I think VQT is still an extremely undervalued meld. Of course it's better to have Aquarius and Hanzo as rage control. But i am not so sure about RQT over VQT. You are totally right about its effectiveness being dependent on immunity prevalence, but, to be honest, it seems everyone today are protecting themselves against retreat(high tier). So it makes RQT less valuable, as it has to hit hero to drain rage. VQT don't have those problems(mostly). Gorgon and Spirit Sirens have retreat/disposal/instakill weaknesses((s)Revive Spirit Siren is a lot better either). Too vulnerable to be useful in top arena or tournament decks. On the other hand, QTs has the great immunity + dodge combo that can be evolved. Her osmose ability pairs up with voodoo to take away 40 rage at max(Concealed strike lvl 10 Hanzo takes away 50 at max). It's a cheap and efficient way to do rage controlling. You would be surprised how many times the enemy has full rage and my leftmost VQT does her voodoo thing and all my subsequent cards miss their target(Groups Tactics) thus not activating enemy hero skill next turn. . Recycle QT is even better investment to my eyes. I have Recycle 2 and recycle 1 QTs too. Love them. I will do RQT for the sake of utility but i don't miss RQTs that much in my decks. I guess i just got used to not having them. Great debate though ^^ You mean take away 30 rage max? since voodoo at max takes away 10 + osmose 20 rage
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 12, 2018 15:00:12 GMT
How much GP to upgrade blue runes to L10? I never see those QTs as quite that survivable - mainly since you cannot easily upgrade her imm and I used all my dodge on my rec2 HB. I certianly would not have the cards to upgrade anything over the rec carrier so i assume vQTs would be running with base level stats. Gorgans got an extra 500HP at L10, SS ~400 at L15. Both provide some lockdown and you could run something useful on the SS aswell. I have been seeing a lot more delilahs in deck duals this time around - but they are easily handled by mt rQTs same goes for Taurus, and retreating aqua can be useful (especially if you run some disposal with arma)
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Post by zamock on Apr 12, 2018 20:20:32 GMT
It takes around 100k rune XP to upgrade blue to 10. I don't know how much that translates into GP. But its fairly easy to go lvl 9. Yes upgrading vQT is a bit of a stretch, but even at base levels they still have quite more survivability than gorgon or SS. If you put Dodge rune into account they can be a real pain in the a**(all my QTs have dodge rune lvl 7+)
It doesn't matter if gorgon or SS have 500 HP or more. All it takes to remove them is one action(ret/disp/insta). vQTs, in the majority of time, will require more than one action to remove them. Maybe (s)revive SS is a bit better because it will always try to revive a creature before opponent action, but if doesn't succeed(torment or no creatures in graveyard), their value will drop significantly as they are very easy to get rid of.
Deck duels is a whole another story, since you have the ability to play the cards manually. So, a lot of our discussion here can't be applied.
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