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Post by HappyThug on Apr 1, 2015 13:41:51 GMT
Disposal is too powerful, it is the cornerstone of every high ranked deck and a must have. Just like revive, but less interesting and more unfair. We need an ability that counters disposal HARD, like protects your whole hand, or if targeted for disposal something good happens to you, or bad for the opponent. I hover around rank 100, and I can't progress much without disposal. That I need this ability and only this ability to help me is wrong. Other tactics should be open to me. Disposal needs to be fixed or other cards need to get abilities that are at least as useful.
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Post by abisal on Apr 8, 2015 16:53:47 GMT
Some ideas I'd consider for "nerfs" to Disposal are: Make it so Disposal only triggers if the opposing player has more than 1 card in hand. Make it so Disposal increases Hero rage by an amount at least equal to the discarded card's cost. Make it so Disposal puts some kind of "marker" on a card that sends it to the graveyard at the end of the turn (this would in turn limit the usefulness of multiple disposals per turn).
Counters probably wouldn't be that effective in this game, since they'd probably be extremely difficult to obtain for most players, anywyay.
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Apr 8, 2015 17:14:23 GMT
No. You're suggesting something that will break even the maps, when you can't dispose of hard map creatures, what are you going to do then? Stoneskin is abundant, that's why it's there..
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Post by abisal on Apr 8, 2015 19:55:10 GMT
I got to Map 9-10 without getting any Disposal card. Beat 9-10 with the first Disposal card I got (Balthazar) and then 9-11's main threat has Melded Immunity 8, anyway. You can't dispose of it most of the time. I haven't played the 10 and 11 Maps yet, but from guides in this board, Immunity (Melded or Innate) seems to become the course of the day. Thus the main point would be to stabilize so it can be
Plus, if you absolutely need to abuse this one ability to go through maps 10 and 11, doesn't that show it is warping? You keep the computer from playing its cards or you lose? IGG could and should come up with alternate strategies, in that case.
That said, those Nerfs I proposed might be a bit too much. Especially the first option. The second I think is fair, since you'd be causing a higher amount of rage if you were destroying the card through damage and the third would only affect decks that play 3 or more Disposal cards.
Ideally its power should be reduced to at least be on par with Insta-kill. And Disposal is often more powerful than Insta-kill, since Disposal gives you better control over what you get rid of and Insta-kill can only destroy creatures that already got to use their own abilities once (except maybe in rare occasions with death-trigger Insta-kills).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 21:13:16 GMT
I got to Map 9-10 without getting any Disposal card. Beat 9-10 with the first Disposal card I got (Balthazar) and then 9-11's main threat has Melded Immunity 8, anyway. You can't dispose of it most of the time. I haven't played the 10 and 11 Maps yet, but from guides in this board, Immunity (Melded or Innate) seems to become the course of the day. Thus the main point would be to stabilize so it can be Plus, if you absolutely need to abuse this one ability to go through maps 10 and 11, doesn't that show it is warping? You keep the computer from playing its cards or you lose? IGG could and should come up with alternate strategies, in that case. That said, those Nerfs I proposed might be a bit too much. Especially the first option. The second I think is fair, since you'd be causing a higher amount of rage if you were destroying the card through damage and the third would only affect decks that play 3 or more Disposal cards. Ideally its power should be reduced to at least be on par with Insta-kill. And Disposal is often more powerful than Insta-kill, since Disposal gives you better control over what you get rid of and Insta-kill can only destroy creatures that already got to use their own abilities once (except maybe in rare occasions with death-trigger Insta-kills). I am on 10-11 and I don't have any disposal cards so its possible to get at least that far without them. It was really hard on some maps and required a bit of luck and watching other battles to see what to do to beat them.
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Post by artdz on Apr 15, 2015 21:30:28 GMT
I agree that disposal is slightly too powerful.
I think just a minor tweak is needed such as the one below.
Stoneskin - Add immunity to Delay Unbound - Add immunity to Disposal
Slightly buffing both of these skills and making unbound also grant disposal protection
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Post by faceless✪NFS on Apr 16, 2015 0:47:59 GMT
I completely agree, disposal don't offer any counter play besides stoneskin. Is freaking frustrating when you face an opponent that have 4+ disposals and on top of that a horde of Revive/Recycle... The Disposal Meta have to die ASAP. How the F... are you suppose to beat an opponent with 6 cards or less. The changes that I propose are :
A) Make Disposal proc 70%-80%. B) Disposal no longer negates Rebirth. C) Limit the 5* cards to 2 copies per Deck (this one is a lil bit too extreme) or limit the number of Hanuman, Balthazar and Gorgon to 1 per Deck, this will hit the Seal Decks too but those bastards are OP as well.
I know this could affect the explore feature, but these rules can be applied just for the PVP.
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Post by megapuncher on Apr 16, 2015 1:57:09 GMT
Disposal is perfect skill - there is no need to nerf it. What we have is a lack of content at the moment - you are all trying to counter one skill with what cards you have. New cards will come - there will be plenty of powerful ones that will outshine Disposal.
My 2 cents.
P.S. I have only 2 Disposal cards.
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Apr 16, 2015 2:19:32 GMT
The whole point of beating pvp is coming up with a strategy and not crying about who has how many disposals. Build a deck, counter the disposal. That simple.
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Post by stuuu✪NFS on Apr 16, 2015 15:45:25 GMT
Some ideas I'd consider for "nerfs" to Disposal are: Make it so Disposal only triggers if the opposing player has more than 1 card in hand. Make it so Disposal increases Hero rage by an amount at least equal to the discarded card's cost. Make it so Disposal puts some kind of "marker" on a card that sends it to the graveyard at the end of the turn (this would in turn limit the usefulness of multiple disposals per turn). Counters probably wouldn't be that effective in this game, since they'd probably be extremely difficult to obtain for most players, anywyay. +1 on the rage idea. I wrote a post on the interaction between disposal and stoneskin because the two balance each other out. Hanuman and Balth are pretty bad creatures without disposal so if you run enough stoneskin/immunity then you don't have to worry as much about them. Gorgon has delay 3 which is pretty nasty so it's a good creature regardless. Much has been written on the rarity of Dullahan, but Graboid is farmable, Royal Dragon is common and both are great creaturers, especially melded. That said, having multiple disposal early is a quick path to top 100 in arenas and makes the game super easy. Having only 1 makes the game challenging. I can't imagine not having any. I would probably start over.
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Post by bigstab [NFS] on Apr 17, 2015 5:39:23 GMT
The whole point of beating pvp is coming up with a strategy and not crying about who has how many disposals. Build a deck, counter the disposal. That simple. I disagree with this statement. The only counter is stoneskin/immunity which requires not only that you have a decent card with stoneskin/immunity but also that it is drawn in the right order to be usefull. I like the concept of disposal but it should be random like instakill.
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Post by megapuncher on Apr 17, 2015 12:18:43 GMT
The whole point of beating pvp is coming up with a strategy and not crying about who has how many disposals. Build a deck, counter the disposal. That simple. I disagree with this statement. The only counter is stoneskin/immunity which requires not only that you have a decent card with stoneskin/immunity but also that it is drawn in the right order to be usefull. I like the concept of disposal but it should be random like instakill.
Stoneskin AND Immunity - if Wiki is up to date, its 21 cards. Something to choose from. Then there is recycle. And stoneskin is meldable on.
But you are right. Lets nerf disposal. Too powerful. And let's nerf Seals/Delay/Deep Freeze/Venom Edge/Frost Blade and such too. Too powerful in my opinion. The only counter is Unbound/Immunity. When playing vs cards with these abilities I have to hold on my cards when placing them on the board. And I don't have that many cards that can counter Seals.
This is exactly as Zachs said: "Build a deck, counter the disposal. That simple." But hell, let's nerf everything. Too powerful.
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Post by bigstab [NFS] on Apr 17, 2015 14:47:20 GMT
I disagree with this statement. The only counter is stoneskin/immunity which requires not only that you have a decent card with stoneskin/immunity but also that it is drawn in the right order to be usefull. I like the concept of disposal but it should be random like instakill.
Stoneskin AND Immunity - if Wiki is up to date, its 21 cards. Something to choose from. Then there is recycle. And stoneskin is meldable on.
But you are right. Lets nerf disposal. Too powerful. And let's nerf Seals/Delay/Deep Freeze/Venom Edge/Frost Blade and such too. Too powerful in my opinion. The only counter is Unbound/Immunity. When playing vs cards with these abilities I have to hold on my cards when placing them on the board. And I don't have that many cards that can counter Seals.
This is exactly as Zachs said: "Build a deck, counter the disposal. That simple." But hell, let's nerf everything. Too powerful.
again id like to counter by saying how can you counter something that relies on timing of card drawing? The only option you truly have is to build a deck where every card has immunity/stoneskin. Rebirth is too slow and its often the rebirth card that gets toasted because if their long wait times. And yes disposal is TOO powerful. If it wasnt then every one of the top decks wouldnt be comprised of nothing but disposal. The OP is about balance and having options in the game. Right now its all about get disposal or grind a counter deck. Do you not see a problem with that? You wouldnt play a shooter with only 1 gun type or an rpg with only 1 spell, why play a card game with only 1 skill?
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Apr 17, 2015 15:12:58 GMT
You people do argue a hilarious point. What's up on the nerf menu? Deathless? Undying? In arena it's random, heck, anyone I see with 5-6 disposal I make a stoneskin deck and beat them 85% of the time, how hard is it to do so? You have the option of modifying your deck to match the opponent's, same thing in tournament, in Gauntlet, in trials, what's the big issue here? On one hand either people get very lucky to get disposals, or they spend for them. On the other, the f2p/ average Joe needs to counter the deck that took a lot of time or money to build, can't sit down and get freebies in the game.
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Post by megapuncher on Apr 17, 2015 15:42:20 GMT
It is time to tell you all "The Best Kept Secret #27" about Deck Heroes game:
Since Deck Heroes game is derived from other known game, your BEST bet to survive and be competitive in PvP in this game is to invest into Stoneskin Deck to counter Disposal Decks.
Here you go, I said it.
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Post by artdz on Apr 17, 2015 19:15:45 GMT
It is time to tell you all "The Best Kept Secret #27" about Deck Heroes game: Since Deck Heroes game is derived from other known game, your BEST bet to survive and be competitive in PvP in this game is to invest into Stoneskin Deck to counter Disposal Decks. Here you go, I said it. I think your missing the point entirely. Can I counter disposal with stoneskin? Obviously Disposal is great in practically any scenario minus stoneskin and high immunity. In many cases there are key cards you want to run that do not have either ability. Stoneskin is useful in very little situations outside disposal Just because it is possible to beat disposal doesn't make it a balanced skill. For example, Arena If I made a stoneskin deck guess what? I can win some attacks and lose to practically everybody because countering stoneskin is easy... If I made a Disposal deck I'd win nearly all my matches minus a better disposal deck or a stoneskin counter.
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Post by megapuncher on Apr 17, 2015 20:47:39 GMT
It is time to tell you all "The Best Kept Secret #27" about Deck Heroes game: Since Deck Heroes game is derived from other known game, your BEST bet to survive and be competitive in PvP in this game is to invest into Stoneskin Deck to counter Disposal Decks. Here you go, I said it. I think your missing the point entirely. Can I counter disposal with stoneskin? Obviously Disposal is great in practically any scenario minus stoneskin and high immunity. In many cases there are key cards you want to run that do not have either ability. Stoneskin is useful in very little situations outside disposal Just because it is possible to beat disposal doesn't make it a balanced skill. For example, Arena If I made a stoneskin deck guess what? I can win some attacks and lose to practically everybody because countering stoneskin is easy... If I made a Disposal deck I'd win nearly all my matches minus a better disposal deck or a stoneskin counter.
Man, you are saying it in kind of weird way. By making Stoneskin deck you are protected from Disposal AND Instakill AND Instakill [D] AND Retreat. That is 11 highly wanted and used cards with most offensive skills in the game. Is that NOT ENOUGH?
I am not suggesting you to run 10 cards with 1 Stoneskin skill on them. You will mix and match your best skills set. That is why it is called strategy. That is why there is meld.
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Post by artdz on Apr 17, 2015 21:02:08 GMT
I think your missing the point entirely. Can I counter disposal with stoneskin? Obviously Disposal is great in practically any scenario minus stoneskin and high immunity. In many cases there are key cards you want to run that do not have either ability. Stoneskin is useful in very little situations outside disposal Just because it is possible to beat disposal doesn't make it a balanced skill. For example, Arena If I made a stoneskin deck guess what? I can win some attacks and lose to practically everybody because countering stoneskin is easy... If I made a Disposal deck I'd win nearly all my matches minus a better disposal deck or a stoneskin counter.
Man, you are saying it in kind of weird way. By making Stoneskin deck you are protected from Disposal AND Instakill AND Instakill [D] AND Retreat. That is 11 highly wanted and used cards with most offensive skills in the game. Is that NOT ENOUGH?
I am not suggesting you to run 10 cards with 1 Stoneskin skill on them. You will mix and match your best skills set. That is why it is called strategy. That is why there is meld.
No it is not enough. And the instakill/retreat is close to irrelevant. Especially instakill. Not sure what the best way to explain it to you but stoneskin has a very narrow use where disposal is useful in Many situations. This is why Disposal is a much better skill. You cannot throw up a heavy stoneskin deck and expect it to realistically be useful in defense because its use is too narrow.
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Apr 17, 2015 22:21:33 GMT
Man, you are saying it in kind of weird way. By making Stoneskin deck you are protected from Disposal AND Instakill AND Instakill [D] AND Retreat. That is 11 highly wanted and used cards with most offensive skills in the game. Is that NOT ENOUGH?
I am not suggesting you to run 10 cards with 1 Stoneskin skill on them. You will mix and match your best skills set. That is why it is called strategy. That is why there is meld.
No it is not enough. And the instakill/retreat is close to irrelevant. Especially instakill. Not sure what the best way to explain it to you but stoneskin has a very narrow use where disposal is useful in Many situations. This is why Disposal is a much better skill. You cannot throw up a heavy stoneskin deck and expect it to realistically be useful in defense because its use is too narrow. What? I'm sorry, explain to me what exactly you mean by this: "You cannot throw up a heavy stoneskin deck and expect it to realistically be useful in defense because its use is too narrow." I seem to be missing something. For quite a while one of the top decks on My arena had 6 stoneskin cards.. and I couldn't beat it with my disposal/ recycle/ undying deck. Do tell me again how it's not realistically useful in defense.
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Post by artdz on Apr 17, 2015 22:25:38 GMT
No it is not enough. And the instakill/retreat is close to irrelevant. Especially instakill. Not sure what the best way to explain it to you but stoneskin has a very narrow use where disposal is useful in Many situations. This is why Disposal is a much better skill. You cannot throw up a heavy stoneskin deck and expect it to realistically be useful in defense because its use is too narrow. What? I'm sorry, explain to me what exactly you mean by this: "You cannot throw up a heavy stoneskin deck and expect it to realistically be useful in defense because its use is too narrow." I seem to be missing something. For quite a while one of the top decks on My arena had 6 stoneskin cards.. and I couldn't beat it with my disposal/ recycle/ undying deck. Do tell me again how it's not realistically useful in defense. Simple it's easy to bypass. Why would you use your disposal deck against a stoneskin deck? Practically any other deck would have a advantage in the fact that they invest 6 skills into stoneskin that doesn't do anything I don't even have a good deck and im always near or at the top of my arena. Guess what? Disposal everywhere in there defense decks. Why? because disposal is an extremely powerful mechanic obviously.
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Post by Pyron on Apr 18, 2015 1:32:01 GMT
Well, Disposal is obviously too powerful. In a game where we can only draw 10 cards, disposing off one card of your choice (arena you don't get to choose, so it's almost the same as instakill) is a mix of card advantage, tempo win, and disruption in one package. Also, it warps the decks around this one singular skills, making powerful skills like Revive/Rebirth even more powerful. Stoneskin/Immunity is too passive of a counter. Demonization is the real counter; however, that's isn't available.
Realistically a skill should not be this powerful and warp deck building around it. We should have a better diversity as well like lockdown, retreat/hero kill (which is kinda destroyed by stoneskin as well), a deck based on buffing stats, and other stuff.
Now about nerfing? I don't think we can nerf Disposal as is. It's too inbred in the game meta that may need a overhaul of other skills as well. We nerf this, and we have to look at the other powerful value skills like Revives. The game is only 10 cards deep. I think what they can do is making playing with Disposal more punishable.
I saw 1 guy in my arena with a really nice anti-Disposal deck. Still, I don't see it as punishing enough. It's a decent strategy, but that's all. Your creatures still need to match up with his. He is only making it leveled. Eventually we will have Disposal on 5* creatures. Most of the Disposal at the top is on 4* Stoneskin creatures (how ironic). You can counter with Stoneskin because the most popular Disposal creature Royal Dragon is a bit pansy. Now if you have Disposal creatures that can match against Stoneskin creatures makes it less fair. Stoneskin is only there to remove Disposal value. In reality you are making the match goes Nidhogg (or any big other big 5*) vs Royal Dragon, so it's slightly favored as Nidhogg is a better creature.
Another instance, no one will play magic damage if they can help it. Some people may not level up their evolved 5* if they get a magic skill the same way they do if they get Sacrifice 1. Why? Spiky Bits is too much of a hard counter for it. If you wanna nerf Disposal, you need the same level of punishment. I would only punsih Disposal and leaving Retreat and Instakill alone thou. So that way we may need to mix Instakill with some Disposal instead of all stoneskined Disposal or 5* Disposal (soon).
The argument of just using Stoneskin decks is fine is ok for now, but for higher arena ladders eventually I can see Melded 5* Disposal being used. Another problem with stoneskin is also being used along side melded Disposal. With other counters like FA vs Bulleyes or Spiky Bits vs magic we don't see that kinda synergy.
Anyway, the best IGG can do is a login 4* with Demonization and that's it.
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Apr 18, 2015 2:15:03 GMT
What? I'm sorry, explain to me what exactly you mean by this: "You cannot throw up a heavy stoneskin deck and expect it to realistically be useful in defense because its use is too narrow." I seem to be missing something. For quite a while one of the top decks on My arena had 6 stoneskin cards.. and I couldn't beat it with my disposal/ recycle/ undying deck. Do tell me again how it's not realistically useful in defense. Simple it's easy to bypass. Why would you use your disposal deck against a stoneskin deck? Practically any other deck would have a advantage in the fact that they invest 6 skills into stoneskin that doesn't do anything I don't even have a good deck and im always near or at the top of my arena. Guess what? Disposal everywhere in there defense decks. Why? because disposal is an extremely powerful mechanic obviously. Because you see, I like many other disposal users have a one track deck. Geared at one thing. Never thought about this? My deck wins based on undying and recycle, as does many of the other disposal users. Again, you go down a road that has a simple solution. Change your deck to counter theirs, win, where's the problem?
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Apr 19, 2015 12:06:02 GMT
Disposal only seems overpowered because the game is young and no one is even close to an end game deck yet. By the time we start getting 30 melded 5*s we are going to be laughing that we thought disposal was overpowered and not immunity 9. I can guarantee the meta is going to be saturated with immunity+revive creatures with far broader scope than disposal.
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Post by artdz on Apr 20, 2015 15:55:08 GMT
Simple it's easy to bypass. Why would you use your disposal deck against a stoneskin deck? Practically any other deck would have a advantage in the fact that they invest 6 skills into stoneskin that doesn't do anything I don't even have a good deck and im always near or at the top of my arena. Guess what? Disposal everywhere in there defense decks. Why? because disposal is an extremely powerful mechanic obviously. Because you see, I like many other disposal users have a one track deck. Geared at one thing. Never thought about this? My deck wins based on undying and recycle, as does many of the other disposal users. Again, you go down a road that has a simple solution. Change your deck to counter theirs, win, where's the problem? The problem lies in defense decks. I'll repeat this again. Disposal is very universally good while the direct counter 'stoneskin' is good only against disposal type decks. Even when you run stoneskin likely it will be on maybe 1/2 your creatures so disposal still is effective half the time. If your stoneskin creatures do not stop a disposal then the stoneskin doesn't do anything. This is why im argueing to buff stoneskin and unbound to be slightly more plentiful to bridge the power gap a bit. Immunity 9 is another discussion entirely because immunity 9 is insanely good.
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Post by Pyron on Apr 20, 2015 17:23:48 GMT
Immunity 9 is OP for the AI, for us I think it's fairly good, but I don't get surprised when it fails 50% of the time against the AI, so not as strong as people make it out.
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Apr 20, 2015 17:34:38 GMT
I don't think it is a different discussion entirely because you are asking to nerf an ability that is directly countered by the best ability in the game. This is coming from someone who has only 1 disposal and 5 5* stoneskin. Stoneskin is powerful but it's just more of a guild map skill than arena. Immunity 9 can tank a retreat for 10 turns without screwing up your order, stoneskin can tank for 100.
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Post by abisal on Apr 21, 2015 22:11:49 GMT
Thinking about possible Counters... How about making new skills for the 4*-5* Heroes that counter these overused abilities? Not necessarily as badly as spiky bits, but just another counter. Like say:
Morti: If you have more than 2 Morti in play, all your creatures gain Rip Neander: If you have more than 2 Neander in play, all your creatures gain Unbound Faen: If you have more than 2 Faen in play, all your creatures gain Torment Human: If you have more than 2 Humans in play, all your creatures gain Stoneskin
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Apr 21, 2015 22:23:53 GMT
Thinking about possible Counters... How about making new skills for the 4*-5* Heroes that counter these overused abilities? Not necessarily as badly as spiky bits, but just another counter. Like say: Morti: If you have more than 2 Morti in play, all your creatures gain Rip Neander: If you have more than 2 Neander in play, all your creatures gain Unbound Faen: If you have more than 2 Faen in play, all your creatures gain Torment Human: If you have more than 2 Humans in play, all your creatures gain Stoneskin Um.. how does overpowering entire decks fix the issue?
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Post by abisal on Apr 21, 2015 22:52:23 GMT
I guess I forgot the "until end of turn" bit at the end of each ability.
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