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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2019 13:32:12 GMT
What to meld onto it?
So far I can only think of I10 or Revive. Any other intresting options?
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Post by ningthou on Apr 10, 2019 17:52:12 GMT
Retreat Recycle 2
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 11, 2019 12:21:53 GMT
does retreat act before or after magma breath? Seems like a bad idea to me
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 11, 2019 12:33:05 GMT
What to meld onto it? So far I can only think of I10 or Revive. Any other intresting options? You could try reflect or magi sheild - make it a DL counter.
Stoneskin would be a good companion to unbound - i10 would only decrease magic damage from the (un)usual magic sources.
Revive seems a no-brainer, especially for a WH deck.
Picking off could be interesting is it acts after magma breath for more damage.
Shame you cannot meld flourish. Perhaps voodoo, so it can sit on the far right?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2019 13:26:48 GMT
The options so far, including my thoughts: - retreat: not good enough against all immunity around - recycle 2: nice, because unbound will trigger every round. However Rec 2 is usually better on your 6 timers. - revive: same. However the great advantage of DL is its survivability when all the rest of your deck is dead. By then most probably your graveyard is closed because of a Paragon. - reflect of magi shield. I don't get it. Who cares about Magic MDG after level 80 or so - Stoneskin. Immu 10 is better because of rune. - Picking off. Too little damage - Voodoo. Rage reducers better be done by QRT, Hanzo or Spirit Callers. Even a voodoo 10 rune can't always prevent raging to the max, because the reduction is only 10 max and made BEFORE the physical damage. Also good chance Magma Breath comes after Voodoo, like with an evolved Ocatvius. - immu 10. Overlaps with unbound, however the immunity rune might restore just enough health to keep it on board forever.
Best options so far: - Immunity 10 with rune. Very hard to kill and every round triggering magma breath. As a bonus you can used it in Grimoire Protean against RIP creature in a Sacred Wolf deck. - Revive. Can trigger every round because of Unbound and Crystal Ward.
When it comes to a decision I tend to choose I10, because he might be able to kill the whole board one for one, because it it very difficult to kill with the immunity rune, meanwhile attacks and recovers every round.
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Post by 1501✪NFS on Apr 11, 2019 16:10:53 GMT
rev is a solid meld for lancer. you cant go wrong with that meld i10 + unbound is great combo, you can deny almost all negative status, retreat, instakill etc., but when you reach certain level, you will need more utility in your card so that you can squeeze other cards in.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 11, 2019 16:30:49 GMT
Hey, you asked for options! Some (eg. voodoo) are just theory crafting. Magma breath (or any crazy damage skill) is a huge rage booster - that is a real problem for decks to handle, so it is worth considering if such issues can be somewhat mitigated.
reflect/magi shield work against the opponents dragon lancer - whereas immunity doesn't. It will massively reduce the incoming magma damage, and in the case of reflect - give a bunch back. In the case of the rune, in theory it could stop the DL from magma breathing the following turn too - though this would need testing to confirm it works. Magma damage is magic damage that specifically bypasses immunity and spellbinder.
In terms of runes, stoneskin does a similar job to immunity, it heals for half that of the imm rune, but also boosts atk by the same ammount. Immunity will trigger from more sources - but will it trigger on things like delay if unbound already rebuffs the lockdown? I would say imm10 is strictly better (aside from the ability to atk build with stoneskin rune), but I struggle to see its value on DL given its skills. Also remember i10 doesn't guarentee anything - more and more things bypass immunity these days, eg. freezing field.
Personnaly I would tend towards utility - since its already got good defences. Freeing up a revive slot means you have more room for rage control - which is essencial when running DL. Rec2 if you need a good carrier for a WH deck (and Oct is never oing to be an option), rev is the most sensible I think. If I had utility covered, I would opt for an anti-DL option over more survivability - especially as its only really retreat/disposal you need to counter. Imm heals is too inconsistent to be that useful, especially with the crazy torment healing we have going on. If you really want that heal, mass heal 10 is going to be stronger than imm rune - and everyone will get it.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 11, 2019 16:34:29 GMT
rev is a solid meld for lancer. you cant go wrong with that meld i10 + unbound is great combo, you can deny almost all negative status, retreat, instakill etc., but when you reach certain level, you will need more utility in your card so that you can squeeze other cards in. stoneskin + unbound vs imm10 + unbound :- what status effects are affect 1 setup and not the other (not counting magic damage or effects that bypass both combos)?
I can think of only rip is blocked by imm10 but not stoneskin.
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Post by 1501✪NFS on Apr 12, 2019 15:58:26 GMT
does retreat act before or after magma breath? Seems like a bad idea to me magma breath first, then retreat. Actually retreat meld is not bad against those artolia, lancer, god cards like terra or dark summoner without immunity.
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Post by 1501✪NFS on Apr 12, 2019 16:17:45 GMT
rev is a solid meld for lancer. you cant go wrong with that meld i10 + unbound is great combo, you can deny almost all negative status, retreat, instakill etc., but when you reach certain level, you will need more utility in your card so that you can squeeze other cards in. stoneskin + unbound vs imm10 + unbound :- what status effects are affect 1 setup and not the other (not counting magic damage or effects that bypass both combos)?
I can think of only rip is blocked by imm10 but not stoneskin. Stoneskin+Unbound can be affected by rip, poison, burn effect and hp/attack reducing skills like afflict & plague (I only can remember those) but those effects cannot affect I10+Unbound..
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 12, 2019 16:57:31 GMT
does retreat act before or after magma breath? Seems like a bad idea to me magma breath first, then retreat. Actually retreat meld is not bad against those artolia, lancer, god cards like terra or dark summoner without immunity. but before the basic attack can finish them off! Just seems like a bad RQT, but I see your point.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 12, 2019 17:04:13 GMT
stoneskin + unbound vs imm10 + unbound :- what status effects are affect 1 setup and not the other (not counting magic damage or effects that bypass both combos)?
I can think of only rip is blocked by imm10 but not stoneskin. Stoneskin+Unbound can be affected by rip, poison, burn effect and hp/attack reducing skills like afflict & plague (I only can remember those) but those effects cannot affect I10+Unbound..
Poison is a good one, but burn still applies through immunity from various sources. Also I think plague/weakness both bypass immunity - thinking of GM Quetzalcoatl here. Afflict = lol.
Ofcourse none of these are prominent in decks
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 17:24:15 GMT
So reflect and Magi Shield work against Magma Breath?
Will this be the come back of spiky bits and sharp armor? The result will be disastrous (for your DL deck!)
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Post by ningthou on Apr 15, 2019 7:46:21 GMT
does retreat act before or after magma breath? Seems like a bad idea to me Doesnot have to be one on one. I mean there can be many creatures and DL just kills off the leftmost and then retreat the creature in front of it. Also many people using Queen Artolia nowadays.
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 15, 2019 12:46:06 GMT
does retreat act before or after magma breath? Seems like a bad idea to me Doesnot have to be one on one. I mean there can be many creatures and DL just kills off the leftmost and then retreat the creature in front of it. Also many people using Queen Artolia nowadays. I scenario is much better than the other: If retreat acts first, it is better (and maybe worse) since if more than 1 creature is in play, you will push one back to the deck and then magma breath the second. If it acts after magma breath, it would be bad since you could deal a whole bunch of damage (and so build rage) on the creature infront and then send it back to get a full heal.
I understand that DL will not always be in the far left position - but this combo seems too odd to be worth the investment, you can already use multiple spirit callers or RQTs to do the retreat work and get a tangible benefit from the free hit on the hero. DL gets no benefit from the hero hit, and potentially prolongs the fight by removing a creature it would have killed.
To me it seems a 'more harm than good' meld option. Or are we into a new 'immunity' meta, where everything gets melded with retreat due to QA?
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Post by n4k3dm1k3 on Apr 15, 2019 13:00:40 GMT
So reflect and Magi Shield work against Magma Breath? Will this be the come back of spiky bits and sharp armor? The result will be disastrous (for your DL deck!)
Spikey bits and DL kinda exist in different parts of the game and nobody uses a neander hero late game. I'm not sure about the reaction, but magma breath will act like a 4 creature targetting spell - so not as epic as vs a snow harlot for example.
Put some terror dragons and swordmasters into a deck and fight a friend. Don't forget to rune them up to check that interaction. Think someone posted something on this last year, look at the 'Skill which Counter New OP Creature Dragon Lancer' thread. You will see it in GM agaisnt archdeva for example.
With regards the reduction, magi shield (and reflect I guess) reduce the ammount of damage taken from the initial instance, and I think that value taken is then the thing that gets multiplied for each subsequent attack (and for relect it reflects the same value each time, not 2, 3 and 4x as much damage reflected). I have not play tested this myself extensively, just from GM when the interaction sometimes occurs. Runes will change the interaction up a little though.
As a side note, crits work mechanically in a similar way - if you crit agasint a crit with frost armour, it will deal 2x the damage you would usually hit the frost armour creature!
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