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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 23:44:23 GMT
I know that I read about others commenting on this... thought it was here, but maybe the "official" forum, Either case, I could not find the thread. Cut THIS thread short, and direct to the one I was in before, no worries. But generally, the % stated on cards... procs if you will via "old school"... and chances of attacking a certain card, much less the chances of that attack causing a "proc" are completely unbalanced. I have had 3 cases of 0.08% chances of occurrence happening (OK, it IS possible that I encountered three of 8 in 10,000 instances). I know I read somewhere of others mentioning how the "auto" play enemies "proc" far above stated %s, and how attacking against them results in "procs" occurring far below probability laws. Repeatedly. And repeatedly. Oh, did I mention repeatedly? It is bad enough that I started actually recording possibilities as stated, and actual results. Yeah, this is a game I should just be enjoying... and here I am recording probability law violations. Basically, auto played = greater positive results of % chances (Better resists when on defense, lowered resists from enemy when attacking, etc.) Generally, this is noted as against the player as they manually play... but seems to work when the player "skips" the battle as well. Also known as the "I was gonna lose, until I Auto-skipped". I really do not want to start a whole new thread, can anyone direct me to the old one?
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Post by Hitmus2✪NFS(xerks) on Mar 17, 2015 6:25:40 GMT
Hi Klaaldrak, This is sad and I noticed it also. I don't know if the placement and time of playing the card really affects its probability to proc also but I sense it has some connection. In Auto play there is no delay of playing a card and also the placement of the cards is always from left to right and this myt be the Xfactor of AI calculations on Procs. It's really hard to precisely explain how AI computed these Procs because of our limitations of game sample size. See let say for example talent have 20% to perform. Lets assume a sample size of 5 games and on those games the talent did not perform so maybe AI widen the range of it occurring to 10 games because lets say after that talent perform 2 times out of 5 games then still its 20%, then what if AI have a wider range, lets say a hundred, a thousand then its hard for us to keep track on the sample size. The only real answer we can get is if we receive a confirmation from IGG on how manual and auto really is calculated as per talent procs, in which is impossible to happen. Well we can always raise a ticket for this and ask for confirmation and if it is bugged they should fix it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 19:14:46 GMT
Heyas Xerkspking.
Well, with the level of customer service often noted, I am not going to hold my breath on any response/changes.
And heck, I would prefer that they fix the Gauntlet for upper level players before anything else.
<8^)
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Post by Somar [BK] on Mar 17, 2015 19:44:41 GMT
My main problem with this is not the fact that they increase the chances for auto play (that actually makes sence since they cant place cards and it's an acceptable way of balancing that)
is the fact that they also decrease it when u use them, and that affects ur strategies a lot, u never know what to expect from ur creatures and most of times i feel i only "get lucky" when it doesnt affect the final outcome
Horned beast is the example i use a lot and a really obvious one: 70% immunity: in the hands of the AI i've had battles where i can land 1/10 magic effects on him in my hands it's not even half, he gets hit every 3/4 or so
50% dodge I've seen it dodge 4 or 5 times in a row in the hands of the AI When i use it i'll be lucky if he dodges once over an entire battle, if it happens twice i almost feel like celebrating
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Post by WyldDozer on Mar 17, 2015 21:14:46 GMT
They really need to change Horned Beast to 10% dodge rate, I crafted 5 of them, they've never lasted more than 1 hit, and if 2 or more are out in play at the same time, more than 1 never dodge.
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Post by DianaTroy [βκ] on Mar 17, 2015 22:28:56 GMT
I have keeping track of proc rates for a while now (38 days and 1,328 battles) and I have some very unfortunate news:
Your creature's skills will proc about 12-14% less than stated on the cards.
Your opponent's creature's skills will proc about 19-21% more than stated on the cards.
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Post by entropy✪NFS on Mar 17, 2015 23:55:07 GMT
I have keeping track of proc rates for a while now (38 days and 1,328 battles) and I have some very unfortunate news: Your creature's skills will proc about 12-14% less than stated on the cards. Your opponent's creature's skills will proc about 19-21% more than stated on the cards. Wow, that starts to become a statistically significant population from which certain observations like you did could no longer be dismissed purely as coincidence! Thats why I love math - it doesn't lie, just gives you the raw data (of course no matter howthoroughly vetted, every result is open to wrong interpretation, but thats another story...) Good job Diana, really appreciate it!
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Post by DianaTroy [βκ] on Mar 18, 2015 1:19:35 GMT
It was one of the first complaints I heard from players, that the opponents skills proc more.
I took on the "study" to prove/disprove the theory, as I have done with several sports games and Call of Duty, and was surprised by the result. The numbers are too big for margins of error, which can be as high as 5.2% in this case.
I took my numbers to the Customer Support in Live Chat and they flat out told me that my math was flawed. So I emailed a copy of my spreadsheet and mathematical equations and they then said my sample size was too small. Then I emailed a spreadsheet that was broken up into 100-battle increments and showed that the numbers stay relatively consistant over any amount of sample size (100/250/500). Their response?
I'm lying and trying to "defame our product". They asked for my IGG ID, for which I refused. The chat was immediately terminated and the account that was linked to my email has been suspended.
Good thing I use a different email for DianaTroy!
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Post by Hitmus2✪NFS(xerks) on Mar 18, 2015 5:26:39 GMT
It was one of the first complaints I heard from players, that the opponents skills proc more. I took on the "study" to prove/disprove the theory, as I have done with several sports games and Call of Duty, and was surprised by the result. The numbers are too big for margins of error, which can be as high as 5.2% in this case. I took my numbers to the Customer Support in Live Chat and they flat out told me that my math was flawed. So I emailed a copy of my spreadsheet and mathematical equations and they then said my sample size was too small. Then I emailed a spreadsheet that was broken up into 100-battle increments and showed that the numbers stay relatively consistant over any amount of sample size (100/250/500). Their response? I'm lying and trying to "defame our product". They asked for my IGG ID, for which I refused. The chat was immediately terminated and the account that was linked to my email has been suspended. Good thing I use a different email for DianaTroy! My last game was very P2P themed game but atleast if something like this happens they try to fix it. I understand that fixing this kind of problem is not very easy since based on my previous game whenever they fix something like this, another kind of error occurs, but atleast they should try and not trying to avoid this kind of feedback from customers. I do enjoy this game and for me its the game with highest upside now but I can really really say that this game's Customer Service is one of the worst.
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Post by bigstab [NFS] on Mar 18, 2015 6:14:56 GMT
Agreed I havent done the math like diana but as an example today I was in gauntlet and I got raped in the first round. Problem was the other creatures kept resurecting. 7 times his creatures resurected. 0 times did any of mine either resurect or dodge. Wiped out my whole deck.
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Post by Pyron on Mar 18, 2015 6:20:59 GMT
I just assume the worse and try to play around it. If a creature has 35% to lock down to 3 of my cards, I just assume 2 of my cards will be locked down (and invariably this is what happens). In my mind I don't think much of how to make my deck, it's more like how much energy I need to get the perfect RNG.
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Post by entropy✪NFS on Mar 18, 2015 9:07:56 GMT
It was one of the first complaints I heard from players, that the opponents skills proc more. I took on the "study" to prove/disprove the theory, as I have done with several sports games and Call of Duty, and was surprised by the result. The numbers are too big for margins of error, which can be as high as 5.2% in this case. I took my numbers to the Customer Support in Live Chat and they flat out told me that my math was flawed. So I emailed a copy of my spreadsheet and mathematical equations and they then said my sample size was too small. Then I emailed a spreadsheet that was broken up into 100-battle increments and showed that the numbers stay relatively consistant over any amount of sample size (100/250/500). Their response? I'm lying and trying to "defame our product". They asked for my IGG ID, for which I refused. The chat was immediately terminated and the account that was linked to my email has been suspended. Good thing I use a different email for DianaTroy! Their response is... scary. I mean they flat out ban someone who went to a great length to understand their sytem and maybe try to help. That shows a great deal of dedication and as you described you even sent them the spreadsheets containing the results. Their ultimate reaction is the best proof that they know about it and it's intended but they want it to remain a secret. Gosh, my blood boils - such incompetency.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 22:19:59 GMT
Old post but I just had to add my rant. Just lost 7-10 Normal (kill all enemy creatures) three times in a row because the AI phoenix with 60% chance to rebirth has hit on every chance. End of the last 2 games was just me repeatedly killing it and watching it rebirth, with my 1 creature eventually killing the hero with rebirthed Phoenix in the enemy hand.
3 times in game 1, 8 times in game 2, 12 times in game 3.
Odds of this happening are: Game 1, 3 times: 21.60% Game 2, 8 times: 1.68% Game 3, 12 times: 0.22% Total, 23 times: 0.0008%
Looks like I will have to wait until I get a Paragon..
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Post by ferrett✪NFS on Jun 2, 2015 0:30:09 GMT
This is why I try to build my decks around non RNG skills, prefer block over dodge for instance. While dodge has the bigger payoff its to unreliable with IGGs math to work.
Also explains why creatures like swordmaster are so good, no RNG there.
In the case of maps requiring killing all creatures the best bet is to get some disposal creatures and just hold them in hand till the end to deal with the last remaining res mobs.
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Jun 2, 2015 2:16:46 GMT
RNG still works just fine in player vs player but yea at this point we can say it's intentionally skewed and their customer service is worse than non existent.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 3:21:49 GMT
This is why I try to build my decks around non RNG skills, prefer block over dodge for instance. While dodge has the bigger payoff its to unreliable with IGGs math to work. Also explains why creatures like swordmaster are so good, no RNG there. In the case of maps requiring killing all creatures the best bet is to get some disposal creatures and just hold them in hand till the end to deal with the last remaining res mobs. Totally agree. This particular phoenix was melded with Immunity 9 though. Disposal would be the easy answer otherwise.
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Post by sinistermj on Jun 3, 2015 11:33:07 GMT
Great to see that someone has made the work on the chances in the game. I got already completely frustrated going against the AI, it seemed to be completely skewed (a 45% dodge chance dodged my Spider Queen 5 times in a row). The reaction on IGGs part though is ridiculous. There is a point of having bad luck contrary to the dice stacked against you.
@ Diana: Any way you could share the results, or do you think you might endanger your main account then?
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#0d6ad6
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Post by DianaTroy [βκ] on Jun 3, 2015 22:27:14 GMT
Great to see that someone has made the work on the chances in the game. I got already completely frustrated going against the AI, it seemed to be completely skewed (a 45% dodge chance dodged my Spider Queen 5 times in a row). The reaction on IGGs part though is ridiculous. There is a point of having bad luck contrary to the dice stacked against you. @ Diana: Any way you could share the results, or do you think you might endanger your main account then? I'll dig them out.
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Post by Opethian on Jun 5, 2015 10:58:35 GMT
The points raised in this thread are synonymous with my experiences. The figures and stats they show are nowhere near representative of what really happens underneath.
Case in Point - Melding. I have yet to successfully meld a creature at 90%.
About the banhammer, and the response on "sullying IGG's reputation", that's is SOP (standard operating procedure) of Chinese businesses, heck even the Chinese government operates that way.
I believe that the rules aren't strict enough, so these companies can get away with dodgy behaviour. It happens in every game, but more so in these Freemium games.
It all comes back to an article that Mortivore posted. In each and every detail of the game, the following question is asked:
Will it make us money? If yes, how much, and if not, why are we even talking about it?
So tampering with the figures, will it make IGG more money? Oh hell yeah! Can IGG get away with it? That's another yes!
And there you have the formula of why the monetary system is no longer fit for purpose in our society.
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Post by sinistermj on Jun 5, 2015 14:27:20 GMT
But honestly, thats just BS. Makes players very frustrated with a game when the odds are purposely stacked against you. I have to admit that after I noticed the %s of good things happening to the AI, I never put in a single cent into it, cause thats unfair to the players, its unfair to honest games, its just utterly stupid.
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Post by vamp on Jun 5, 2015 22:11:08 GMT
The points raised in this thread are synonymous with my experiences. The figures and stats they show are nowhere near representative of what really happens underneath. Case in Point - Melding. I have yet to successfully meld a creature at 90%. About the banhammer, and the response on "sullying IGG's reputation", that's is SOP (standard operating procedure) of Chinese businesses, heck even the Chinese government operates that way. I believe that the rules aren't strict enough, so these companies can get away with dodgy behaviour. It happens in every game, but more so in these Freemium games. It all comes back to an article that Mortivore posted. In each and every detail of the game, the following question is asked: Will it make us money? If yes, how much, and if not, why are we even talking about it? So tampering with the figures, will it make IGG more money? Oh hell yeah! Can IGG get away with it? That's another yes! And there you have the formula of why the monetary system is no longer fit for purpose in our society. Not again.. 90% expertise doesn't mean your next meld will have 90% chance to succeed. It still has 15% chance to succeed! It just means you're 90% of the way to having 100% expertise, at which point you can't fail. Eg. on a 2x meld day 1st meld - 15% chance to succeed. 0 to 30% expertise if failed. 2nd meld - 15% chance to succeed. 30 to 60% expertise if failed. 3rd meld - 15% chance to succeed. 60 to 90% expertise if failed. 4th meld - 15% chance to succeed. 90 to 100% expertise if failed. 5th meld - 100% chance to succeed. On a normal day you only get 15% expertise per failed meld, but still have the same 15% chance to succeed per meld.
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Post by Opethian on Jun 6, 2015 7:58:12 GMT
Thank you for posting the information, I stand corrected on that point.
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Post by maker on Jun 6, 2015 19:41:19 GMT
Video game with challenging AI, extensive customization, and I get to play it for free in the palm of my hand anywhere anytime. So what it took me near a month to beat some dungeons. That's part of the fun imo. Sure losing even after you miraculously dispose that immunity 9 rebirthing 5* makes you want to facedesk....but still without strong challenges... AND its balanced for pvp which soooo many games struggle with
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Post by sinistermj on Jun 6, 2015 19:49:02 GMT
How is the AI challenging? I know EXACTLY what the opponent is going to play and do. If I have a counter setup (like Neander with Spiky vs Faen), and still lose 5 out of 5 games, its rigged and frustrating. I have thought about how to beat it, but can't due to the dice
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Post by devindestroyer on Jun 8, 2015 3:45:50 GMT
Anyone notice after the rune update certain skills like dodge fail all the time now? Since the soul swap rune on my harbingers they get hit 75 percent of the time. Before it seemed like they dodged 60 percent at least...wtf? Am I imagining this?
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Post by thundergod on Jun 8, 2015 4:34:00 GMT
On auto, the match is already decided from the beginning, so I don't know what they do with the percentages there. For manual and its percentages, I think it goes both ways. I've had instances where I've been on the good side of RNG. It's just that many people remember bad luck more.
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