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Jan 19, 2016 13:30:11 GMT
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Post by bluefire on Jan 19, 2016 13:30:11 GMT
There are ethical and moral conduct rules in play. Your statement about them being allowed to do whatever they want with their property is true, but only if there is an equivalent compensation if they choose to reduce the value of something they've sold and advertised for more. I don't expect you to know this, but now you do. There is no such thing as an absolute rule, because an absolute rule (Such as IGG being allowed to do whatever they want) means all the power goes to the entity who is the beneficiary of said absolute rule. So please don't be so naive to think that IGG actually can get away with nonsense like this. No companies in the world can, neither can IGG. It is only if people (like you, it seems) allow them to, that they can. Moral and ethical values means nothing when it comes to a contract, sorry. They dont need to compensate you, its on the TOS that they can do whatever they want. If tomorrow they paint Oceanus in pink and swap his skill with Chaos Witch you need to deal with it. You agreed with the TOS. This is fundamental on any multiplayer game. Dont call me naive, Im not underestimating your debate skills so dont do it with me. Also Its not relevant for your argument if you are a law student, its a fallacy (argument from authority) and you dont know my academic background. You both stop it. You guys both have valid arguments and ways to look at this. Mandragon pointed out that your time is the most valued thing and that one shouldn't waste it. I agree, but why should one let IGG (or anybody) get away with (this) scam? Why just accept? If one doesn't fight for his rights regardless it turns out that one was wrong in the first place one ends up like the guy, who got banned, pointed out.
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Post by thelawstudent on Jan 19, 2016 13:30:57 GMT
Mandragora: Moral and ethical rules exist in various forms in national and international law. This isn't up for discussion, this is fact. Accept it.
Now I'll tell you why it may not seem that way to you. First, the laws about virtual goods isn't well developed so the laws applied are from general contract law normally. Another thing is where the line is drawn on what right a developer has to alter their product. If IGG refuses to give you the cash, you are in the most extreme case forced to go to court, probably in their country to get the money back. This means accruing MASSIVE legal fees just to win a case for a few hundred dollars? No one will do that. They will cut their losses and move on. But that's because it in PRACTICE is much more expensive going after the company, NOT because they actually are in the right.
You may not be naive about many things, and you seem to articulate well. However you are naive (or perhaps simply do not know?) if you believe a company CAN do whatever it wants with its virtual propery without having to compensate their customers. Again; they can make Oceanus a pink 1-star bunny if they like. But then they have to reimburse the players for their losses. It's simple.
Several court cases have been decided in favor of the players who were wronged like this in other games. So there is precedence on the field as well.
Also: If IGG didn't have to adhere to a higher entity (GOOGLE PLAY STORE), they would be even worse. Because now they always have to cleverly hide their changes behind "Balance issues" or whatnot, so as to not be eligible for refund requests when they make these changes. If, however, you couldn't go to GOOGLE to attack IGG, then you'd never see a dime of your money. That's reality, but that reality doesn't mean IGG has the right to do it. It just means that it is to expensive to sue IGG as a company because lawyers aren't free.
And another thing: I am quitting the game, but the point of the posts was to show that the practice is not acceptable, and that you indeed will be able to get a refund for the Oceanus-nonsense IGG are pulling. There are a lot of young players who do not know if it is even possible to get their money back for something like this.
And people like mandragora is making it worse by stating (falsely) that IGG is free to do whatever they want. They aren't. If you want to refute this point with me, go study intellectual property law and international court rulings on similar cases.
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lampround✪NFS
ApexNFS Guild
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Guild: NFS
LINE ID: Lampround
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Post by lampround✪NFS on Jan 19, 2016 13:31:18 GMT
Lampround: It was a way of going about it if you wanted to contact google refund. As in: Ask IGG nicely, WHEN (not if, WHEN) they say no, have them escalate you to a higher up-person closer to devs and theyll contact you via mail. When you then get their mail, you will have the proof that you need to present Google if needed, when you contact google for the refund. IGG wil absolutely not give you anything, all you are talking with IGG for, is to get the evidence that they are unwilling to compensate for your google-refund-call. Noted, interesting what you can learn from the internet
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lampround✪NFS
ApexNFS Guild
Posts: 1,053
Level: 92
Guild: NFS
LINE ID: Lampround
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Jan 19, 2016 13:34:22 GMT
Post by lampround✪NFS on Jan 19, 2016 13:34:22 GMT
Moral and ethical values means nothing when it comes to a contract, sorry. They dont need to compensate you, its on the TOS that they can do whatever they want. If tomorrow they paint Oceanus in pink and swap his skill with Chaos Witch you need to deal with it. You agreed with the TOS. This is fundamental on any multiplayer game. Dont call me naive, Im not underestimating your debate skills so dont do it with me. Also Its not relevant for your argument if you are a law student, its a fallacy (argument from authority) and you dont know my academic background. You both stop it. You guys both have valid arguments and ways to look at this. Mandragon pointed out that your time is the most valued thing and that one shouldn't waste it. I agree, but why should one let IGG (or anybody) get away with (this) scam? Why just accept? If one doesn't fight for his rights regardless it turns out that one was wrong in the first place one ends up like the guy, who got banned, pointed out. Agree, why should we accept it. I am playing an open beta game atm, Armored Warfare, darned good game by the way. They are in the process of extreme balancing as is to be expected. But the latest nerf(which has caused a sh1tstorm) is going to be compensated in some way as the company, Obsidian Entertainment, recognize that everyone has spent time, and money, unlocking ingame items that are no longer as effective.
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Post by vagou on Jan 19, 2016 13:55:02 GMT
If you want a refund do so as the law student said. Contact IGg, save proof that you tried contacting them for one two weeks, explain your unfair situation (booster before nerd, etc), link to this forum and threads with tons of complaints, attach communication emails with igg, then it should do. I've done that 3 years ago for another game (similar deal) and Google was super quick to understand (so was Apple). I'd say the key is to not blame, rather you should take the "I have an issue with the dev but they won't budge, can you please help" approach.
As for the nerd to guild maps, I would say it was expected and i don't care, everyone is in the same boat. Players abused the mechanics clearing maps in one go with Alts to speed up the process for months. How many players who complain actually farmed the rewards like crazy and got the strongest cards easily? Of course they are pissed, but I highly doubt the dev meant for guild maps to be so easy and rewarding. Those who got strong cards out of maps should feel very privileged to have been able to farm them because now it's a completely new deal.
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Jan 19, 2016 13:57:07 GMT
Post by leomogar on Jan 19, 2016 13:57:07 GMT
And if you truly want the game to die just quit playing it. As I said before, ive been playing flash games since 2007 (yeah Im a masochist). Ive seen countless riots like this before, campaigns to make people refrain to spend, hatemails to the company, people making an army of alts so they need to spend more on storaged data and even people doing real life comitees to travel to the game publisher. Nothing works if you keep spending your time on it. If you stop spending theres another dozen guys that are willing to do it as long as there people on the game to interact with. And whales always need punchbags, thats the whole concept of a freemium game. If you are truly outraged by the game quit right now, its the best thing you can do to harm the company. Theres another million games out there that might be a lot more entertaining for you, give your time (the most valuable asset on games like this) to some other company. And forget about the time spent. I have an ex-wife and I didnt die because of it. Move on. This is quite sad, have you ever heard the story about that elephant who grew up chained at the point "he" stopped trying, even when being an adult he was strong enough? Looks a lot like it. Everybody realizes about the scam, nobody will do anything cause "We" already lost that battle.
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Post by Sinister22✪NFS on Jan 19, 2016 14:09:18 GMT
we cannot quit because the player base would just be the same, people will still come and feed them what they want. The best is like what thelawstudent said, we must act. I already made tickets and is in process. Let's see how they will act this out.
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Jan 19, 2016 14:52:30 GMT
Post by Lastpak✪NFS on Jan 19, 2016 14:52:30 GMT
We must act. I already made tickets and is in process. Let's see how they will act this out. You can try all you want and you can get your refunds and change reviews etc, it won't do s*** . IGG has a set path for their app and they will not change it no matter what you guys come up with. Be realistic and just play the game or quit, it's about time members here should start to realize that.
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Jan 19, 2016 15:01:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 15:01:09 GMT
i have neither oceanus nor lots of farmed shards but the mentality beyond this patch and its purpose is very clear. Thinking it as a new way of challenging ? Well,absolutely not. That would be too optimistic way,more than needed. Although game needed balance about oceanus it shouldnt be like this way.
And ethical issues really do exist in law. its all about how the reaction is, and its magnitude,its rightfulness.then everything is in the hand of justice.
Google loses nothing for banning any company from its e-stores ,especially the ones which are scamming ppl with using google virtual credits ,under the brand name google but a firm does. in fact, it should ban for its own reputation. it should pay attention to user complaints.
Again its all about whether you accept the changes sitting quitely in a corner or say, hey this is wrong,you shouldnt have done like that, this is scamming ,you should pay for that. Ofcourse quitting the game after spending months of effort and maybe some money could be an option for some of us absolutely not for me.i would try to do whatever i could do first.
Good luck for the most screwed ones.
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Jan 19, 2016 16:22:24 GMT
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Post by posejdon21 on Jan 19, 2016 16:22:24 GMT
As long as I can agreed oceanus should be nerfed, I can't agreed how igg managed this. They should do it before they added mines and oceanus shards to this future. After players faster (spenders) or later (f2p) get him igg did it in the worst way for they customers.
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Jan 19, 2016 18:49:38 GMT
Post by karesz on Jan 19, 2016 18:49:38 GMT
What do you think guys Spirit Arbiter or Armageddon is the better for my first 5 stars hero now?
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Jan 19, 2016 18:52:30 GMT
Post by Absoul on Jan 19, 2016 18:52:30 GMT
What do you think guys Spirit Arbiter or Armageddon is the better for my first 5 stars hero now? Arma is still crap, Spirit Arbiter is top tier at level 7+
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Jan 19, 2016 19:02:04 GMT
Post by karesz on Jan 19, 2016 19:02:04 GMT
What is the best on low level? What is your opinion?
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Jan 19, 2016 19:12:40 GMT
Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Jan 19, 2016 19:12:40 GMT
As far as the GM nerf goes I actually like it. I think I was one of the first that said last patch that they were going about addressing the GM problem the wrong way by focusing on limiting jumps which had a number of adverse side effects. The main problem was the huge discrepancy between a players ability to farm up contribution and a players ability to spend it and that capping wight damage at 5k would attack the problem at its core.
I also kind of like the oceanus fix but I'm not in love with the way it was implemented. Old oceanus was fine when it was rare but once it became easily accessible it was just kind of too good at everything too early making a lot of other choices obsolete. By pushing back its power spike it still retains it's identity as a premier end game option without being completely overbearing earlier. However, by changing its early identity it's left in the hands of numerous players that got it for its other roles that it no longer fills and who no longer have a use for it. I would have liked to see them take the Blizzard approach and offer an in game option for players to exchange it for an ore refund for a week or two after the patch if it no longer does what they got it for. It's not really something you see out of smaller companies though so maybe that's asking too much.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:13:43 GMT
Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Jan 19, 2016 19:13:43 GMT
What is the best on low level? What is your opinion? Captivator
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Post by bluefire on Jan 19, 2016 19:24:31 GMT
What is the best on low level? What is your opinion? Captivator Just as universal and has always been the better option. But the shards are a little harder to come by.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:43:29 GMT
Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Jan 19, 2016 19:43:29 GMT
Until you run into an arena like mine where lvl 6+ Warlock is the most common hero My Captivator crushed them when we all had level 1/2 heroes though.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:47:41 GMT
Post by karesz on Jan 19, 2016 19:47:41 GMT
What is the best what you can buy from mine?
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Jan 19, 2016 19:52:48 GMT
Post by bluefire on Jan 19, 2016 19:52:48 GMT
Until you run into an arena like mine where lvl 6+ Warlock is the most common hero My Captivator crushed them when we all had level 1/2 heroes though. Warlock crushes captivator, captivator cruhes oceanus, and oceanus crushes warlock. Now I finally understand, we needed this oceanus nerf (not being to serious) Oh dear lord, how will I ever make decisions again to go for a 5* hero if a few months down the road, they are going to nerf thim again.
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Jan 19, 2016 19:55:39 GMT
Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Jan 19, 2016 19:55:39 GMT
What is the best what you can buy from mine? I decided to push for oceanus since I had the shards to get him to level 5 in a couple weeks. If I could do it over I might try Arbiter but she needs levels more than just about any other hero.
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Post by bluefire on Jan 19, 2016 19:55:47 GMT
What is the best what you can buy from mine? See that's the real issue here, since I can't tell which hero IGG is going to buff or nerf next. I can't answer you this one. May recommondation, save up your ore and wait a few weeks and than check the turney top 100 decks.
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Jan 19, 2016 21:40:07 GMT
Post by Absoul on Jan 19, 2016 21:40:07 GMT
Did anyone else realise that you always get 2 shards from energy mines instead of one since the maintenance?
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Jan 19, 2016 21:46:28 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 21:46:28 GMT
i havent tried mines yet but, explored all of some creature shard rewarded dungeons
got. 0 oracle shard, 0 naga mistress shard, 0 troll mage shard.
isn't it strange is it? Lol...
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Jan 19, 2016 21:59:57 GMT
Post by drakkan on Jan 19, 2016 21:59:57 GMT
Did anyone else realise that you always get 2 shards from energy mines instead of one since the maintenance? It was as such first time I did mines after maintenance. When I got a shard it was x2 Now I get 1 shard most of times .. ? Do you still get x2?
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Jan 19, 2016 22:09:40 GMT
Post by Absoul on Jan 19, 2016 22:09:40 GMT
Did anyone else realise that you always get 2 shards from energy mines instead of one since the maintenance? It was as such first time I did mines after maintenance. When I got a shard it was x2 Now I get 1 shard most of times .. ? Do you still get x2? Yeah i was doing mines like 2 hours ago and saw that i got 2 dh shards. Didn't pay attention before.
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Jan 19, 2016 22:41:24 GMT
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Post by asgarth1980 on Jan 19, 2016 22:41:24 GMT
After nerf .. Clearing trials 114 could guarantee u gems since cloning stats is lowered...from the ranking it seems...
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Post by drakkan on Jan 19, 2016 22:43:58 GMT
Btw speaking of Oceanus .. my lvl1 Oceanus just won vs Spirit Arbiter lvl7 in Tournament..
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Jan 19, 2016 23:09:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by SirGin on Jan 19, 2016 23:09:47 GMT
I didnt write this. I got it off dh facebook page
No dude, sorry. Greed is gaming a system far, FAR far far far beyond the intended range of damage, thereby blowing through Guild Maps 1000x faster than you were meant to... raking in shards in order to rake in creatures at a far faster rate than you are meant to in the game. THAT is greed, dude.
Don't always assume that greed can only occur on the side of a company. Lets see, what was normal or intended here... 20k damage netted roughly 100k gold, right? THe top priced items in the Bazaar are 25k-50k gold? And lets see... 100k gold would cost you about 50 gems, right? Annnnnd 200 gems has a value in the ballpark of 2 bucks, right? (not in game so just going from rough memory, don't quote me) Looks to me like people were essentially gaming the system to STEAL thousands of dollars worth of value in in-game goods.
So that is a pretty easy way to determine how obscenely out of reasonable range this damage was, lmao. People are doing damage in a range the value of which is like $20 to $30 dollars, bahaha. Ya, of course they're complaining that someone closed the back door to the bank vault they were sneaking thousands of dollars out through per week, metaphorically speaking.
I'm betting people eventually hit a cap for the amount of gold they received for damage in a guild map. (which would have been a dead giveaway that you'd reached the upper, UPPER limit of expected, intended damage). ANd I'm betting people like Shawn blew past that cap way, WAY before he actually ended his match. If there wasn't a cap, there certainly is now.
Look... It is pretty easy to tell whether something like that was intended by looking at all other methods of obtaining shards in the game, and checking the rate at which they were obtained versus in guild maps. If you're gaining 10x, or lmao 100x the shards one way, chances are you're PROBABLY abusing things in a way that wasn't intended. These players should really be thankful that IGG didn't just decide to confiscate all shards earned this way. They represent thousands of dollars in lost revenue from people progressing through the game at the intended rate. Instead, they let players just keep what they earned. Now THAT is a LACK of greed. See how that works?
It is funny... you can always tell what systems are being abused by the level of outrage people give when those systems are tweaked.
I just pulled this off facebook. What do you all think of this response to the negative posts on Deck Heroes Facebook page?
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Jan 20, 2016 0:31:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 0:31:24 GMT
50 gems could be exchanged for a 100k gold in theory ( in practice, i've never heard anyones doing that, anyone ? lol ) but you cant buy 50 gems for a 100k gold...so it is so wrong to say, you own 100k gold thats equal to 50 gems., aaannd this is worth xxx $$$ . aaand players are robbing us...he must be genius..loool. Are top prices 25k 50k gold in bazaar ? Really ? Whats that 200 - 300 gems prices then? How much shall we pay for 1k - 2k glory ? Half a million gold ? Whats their better and logical deal ? Selling 5k glory points or 10k i dont remember exactly for 200 gems is not being greedy Lol.. You can just refresh raid attempts paying 100 gem, and easily gain guaranteed 10k+ up to xxxx glory points. There are lots of logical errors for the ridiculous prices in game like this. My guild is pretty good,we have nice stuff in our guild ,we've been doing nice so far, İf my mind doesnt trick me, to clear 3 map was taking a week or so. and i have never ever collected more than 7 - 8 shards a day - different creature shards, some creatures are not popular and thats why it is 7-8. i will not even talk about the others that cant achieve what we do. İf guild hoping , collecting 100x shards ,or doing massive damage with Wight has been the main problem for the increasing unbalance so far, then pls let me ask them, why have they been so so late ? Why have they let this happen and just watched the today's "unthankful top players" ( im not one of those top players ) collecting hundreds of it Then why wouldnt they choose the way of increasing the cooldown for to join another guild, whether a player is kicked or left ? Was it so hard to negate it by changing 2 hours cd to a few days or simply finding another solution that would not hurt rest of the players ?? Someone talked about greed ?? i would have said to person who wrote these, has he any idea about the company he defends ?? The real greed is , let me say, resetting arena - raid 40 sec. cooldown (when you skip and win) at the cost of "1" fucking gem.. Yeah only 1. Lol...Why would anyone need to act like this ??
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Hey, turn me back around.
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Jan 20, 2016 3:13:15 GMT
Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Jan 20, 2016 3:13:15 GMT
Top priced items? It costs like 6 million just to level up a creature. 100k per step in Valhalla.
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