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Post by cerddorion on Mar 7, 2016 14:09:58 GMT
I've played Magic the Gathering for a long time and had been looking for a viable alternative online since WOTC charges an arm and a leg to play its "official" version online. So I stumbled upon Deck Heroes and thought, "Great! I can play for free and still get a good challenge with deck building." Been playing for about a year and now I see just how lacking this game is as far as deck building and mechanics go. I understand that the company needs to turn a profit. There is too much emphasis on having a certain handful of cards, i.e., QT with retreat, Taurus, Twins, etc. You can only beat that kind of deck with a similar one. At least in MTG, you have counterspells and ways to stop a player from summoning creatures. Yeah, we have disposal and instakill, but there's not a way to target specific critters WHEN WE WANT TO. There's too much randomness in this game and that takes away from the strategic options. So we are left with just a handful of cookie cutter decks that you either buy your way into or grind at for months in order to get. We should be able to trade for cards, ALL cards should be farmable from maps, trials, gauntlet, etc. We have critters that have a retreat skill every turn. Why not some with a disposal skill every turn? Why not one that causes damage for every critter opp has in play? Why not have permanent spells that stay in play? All of these options would bring more depth to deck building and more variety to gameplay. Of course, MTG has its faults, but they also have a system that recognizes when cards are broken and instead of nerfing abilities, they limit or outright ban the card in standard play. I'm tired of seeing the same old decks every time I load up the arena or raids. I can't even get started in the tournament area because there's no way to compete with the higher level players. Why aren't there different classes in there? All of these things are making this less fun to play, and I'm not a competitive player. I play for fun and free. So, let the opinions fly. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 17:27:28 GMT
Retreat QT x 2 Melded revive x 1-2 Melded recycle x 1-2 Melded bullseye+sacrifice x 2 Paragon Rare OP card 1-2
Same for all.
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Post by cerddorion on Mar 7, 2016 17:57:17 GMT
Retreat QT x 2 Melded revive x 1-2 Melded recycle x 1-2 Melded bullseye+sacrifice x 2 Paragon Rare OP card 1-2 Same for all. EXACTLY!!! Where is the skill in being a copy cat?
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Post by cerddorion on Mar 7, 2016 18:05:45 GMT
Here's an idea....
Do away with the meld system Let ALL cards be available to all players Run tourneys that you have to pay to participate in, with prizes for top three winners Since everyone has all the cards, there's no divide between f2p and p2p
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Post by dhinstructables on Mar 7, 2016 21:05:25 GMT
I've played a few mobile games for long-term and it seems like all of them have these same issues of power creep & f2p vs p2p balance. With Freemium games, the developers need to make an incentive for the players to pay for the game (no money, no game). With Clash of Clans, it was to speed up the progress; with many others, it was to allow you to get rid of any down-time/cooldown. These games though are not Card based.
With DH being a card based game, it needs to have a balance between encouraging some/all players to spend real money on the development and also attracting the mass audience. Giving all cards freely to many/all players would cause problems of it's own and imo is not the best way to make this game fun. I wouldn't mind seeing a few powerful cards added that would restrict players to only being able to acquire 1 of 4 (and have each of the 4 be countered by another of the 4). This could create several new meta's and if done properly would make players build better decks, not cookie cutter decks.
If I were IGG, I would be more worried about the power creep as it compares to the newer players.
Look at Tournament when it first came out; you could get into rankings around Lv60. Now, even the 9000's are mostly lvl 70+. This will only continue to increase over the next 8 months. Same thing can be said about Faction Wars, Guild Battles... So I would worry about the discouragement to all the new players (many to the point of quitting) and the inevitablility of the older players getting bored and moving on... this will eventually kill of the game. However, my biggest concern with DH is not the restriction of certain cards or the meta, but that the developers go out of their way to entice players to get the newest OP Card/Hero. Then rather than "break the system", they "fix th bug" (aka nerf it) to the point of said card/hero becoming hardly used. This is stupid at best and deceitful at worst. Although that point has expressed by many players all around this forum.
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Post by jckson992 on Mar 7, 2016 23:17:49 GMT
Here's an idea.... Do away with the meld system Let ALL cards be available to all players Run tourneys that you have to pay to participate in, with prizes for top three winners Since everyone has all the cards, there's no divide between f2p and p2p Best thing I have seen on this forum!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 23:58:58 GMT
I've played a few mobile games for long-term and it seems like all of them have these same issues of power creep & f2p vs p2p balance. With Freemium games, the developers need to make an incentive for the players to pay for the game (no money, no game). With Clash of Clans, it was to speed up the progress; with many others, it was to allow you to get rid of any down-time/cooldown. These games though are not Card based.
With DH being a card based game, it needs to have a balance between encouraging some/all players to spend real money on the development and also attracting the mass audience. Giving all cards freely to many/all players would cause problems of it's own and imo is not the best way to make this game fun. I wouldn't mind seeing a few powerful cards added that would restrict players to only being able to acquire 1 of 4 (and have each of the 4 be countered by another of the 4). This could create several new meta's and if done properly would make players build better decks, not cookie cutter decks.
If I were IGG, I would be more worried about the power creep as it compares to the newer players.
Look at Tournament when it first came out; you could get into rankings around Lv60. Now, even the 9000's are mostly lvl 70+. This will only continue to increase over the next 8 months. Same thing can be said about Faction Wars, Guild Battles... So I would worry about the discouragement to all the new players (many to the point of quitting) and the inevitablility of the older players getting bored and moving on... this will eventually kill of the game. However, my biggest concern with DH is not the restriction of certain cards or the meta, but that the developers go out of their way to entice players to get the newest OP Card/Hero. Then rather than "break the system", they "fix th bug" (aka nerf it) to the point of said card/hero becoming hardly used. This is stupid at best and deceitful at worst. Although that point has expressed by many players all around this forum.
i agree with you, just wanted to say a thing. When/if it will become impossible to compete with older players in a lvl 80+ starting rank tournament area, igg will just divide the older-newer players into different servers.(deifferent servers for a same region). So i dont think they care for that.
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Post by jckson992 on Mar 8, 2016 0:26:01 GMT
Be better if they divided them by level/deck power
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Post by ℳarty on Mar 8, 2016 3:49:45 GMT
Just saying, MTG is over 30 years old, dh is 1 year. Competition decks in MTG are very expensive as well, definitely not free 2 play All I will add is deck heroes is very free 2 play friendly, enjoy it or change game.
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Post by jckson992 on Mar 8, 2016 4:42:10 GMT
Are you a free player? Otherwise you cannot say that lol. And it is very easy in mtg to make cheap competitive deck, much more so than in DH
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Post by ℳarty on Mar 8, 2016 6:48:09 GMT
My spending on this game have anything to do with my general knowledge of it. I spent 74$, not that it matter here . Numerous players have achieved more than respectable ranks being f2p/star. Top 100 tournament, top 10 arena included. Numerous f2p players clear trial 119-120 everyday. Numerous f2p players are in guilds with ton of (free) shards. Alot clear gauntlet daily, and so on, you get the point. I still use 26 farmable cards in my tournament decks, with 2 Taurus I got for free from ranking on faction war and a lucky revive in 3rd mine, melded ofc on a farmable Fafnir. That's very f2p friendly to me. Good luck being top harcore MTG players without spending quite a good amount. Google search it.
I should add, since it's the subject The meta change quite often imo, from Wight heavy disposal, stab, lvl 1 oce to the news op cards such as Taurus, Aquarius. Heroes getting more diversified, with blade master, spirit arbiter, alchemist poping in tournament. I'm not saying it's perfect, I know most top guys use very similar decks, but it's a cards/collection game after all, happen in most of them.
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Post by Sinister22✪NFS on Mar 8, 2016 7:08:52 GMT
DH will never run with just pure F2P community. You guys have great ideas but its not parallel with the ideals of IGG. it is a company made to profit. There have been tons of post with similar ideals like this but in the end, players are just zombies eating what the company wants to shove at your throats. If you cannot accept that fact, DH is not for you, not matter how great your ideas are, as long as it doesnt provide $$$$, its a no go. The Stab nerf, the GM nerf, and many more nerfs were all NOT welcomed by the community, but did it change what IGG wants? nope... in the end, posts like this will be forgotten. it's not your fault, its about the system, in which you must adapt to and not go against.
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Post by Mandragora on Mar 8, 2016 13:34:14 GMT
Are you a free player? Otherwise you cannot say that lol. And it is very easy in mtg to make cheap competitive deck, much more so than in DH I dont need to rotate myself to criticize a washing machine
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Post by ℳarty on Mar 9, 2016 21:33:36 GMT
Are you a free player? Otherwise you cannot say that lol. And it is very easy in mtg to make cheap competitive deck, much more so than in DH I dont need to rotate myself to criticize a washing machine LOL!
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Post by ℜ★God on Mar 9, 2016 22:50:38 GMT
Are you a free player? Otherwise you cannot say that lol. And it is very easy in mtg to make cheap competitive deck, much more so than in DH I dont need to rotate myself to criticize a washing machine That's a f***ing fantastic point lmao. Anyways, all I'll say is that all card games, and really any game that has a competitive scene (LoL, CS:GO, CoD, MTG, Hearthstone, DoTA, etc) has a meta, and if you want to be on a competitive level, then you need to fit in with that meta. If you want to compete in DH, then you'll need the top 3 5 star heroes (all of which are obtainable by any F2P or P2W player), and the standard cookie cutter decks. That's just how it is. Of course, that's not to say that you can't stray from the norm and be a weirdo, but if you do that, then you'll definitely have a lot harder time. For example, Secret Paladin is REALLY popular in Hearthstone right now, because it's an incredibly strong deck. I could play Malygos Rogue, which is a really outdated deck, and I could make it work if I was good enough; however, I will have a lot tougher time than if I just followed the meta. I do see your point, though. Deck Heroes could increase variety by: - Making P2W cards (Aquarius, Cancer, Snow Harlot, Dahlia, Libra, Alice. Just to name a few.) more available to the F2P players (this could easily be done through adding more Guild Maps, doing more Heists, etc). A game I used to play which is similar to Deck Heroes, Heroes of Camelot, had a few separate currencies in the game that could be obtained in a reasonable amount of time, for free. And said currencies could be used to buy some pretty powerful cards. Also, they had events very often (once every couple of weeks), where any F2P player who spent even 10 minutes playing the event would obtain some really sick P2W cards. Because of this, deck variety in that game was crazy. Of course, there were a few cards (mainly the 8 star cards, which had hundreds of thousands of ATK and HP) which were mainly exclusive to the P2W and very strong F2P players, but for the most part you could get your hands on any card in the game, regardless of how big your bank account is.
- Adding more factions, or more card types. I really like all of the different card types that games like MTG and Yu-Gi-Oh have to offer, and I feel as though Deck Heroes would benefit a lot if they implemented more of them. Of course, there is one big obvious problem that this could cause: auto battles would be way more random XD. Imagine auto battles that include spell cards, artifacts, equip cards, etc. That'd be RNG city. It would make manual battles a lot more interesting, though.
- Add passive abilities to cards. Back when I played Heroes of Camelot, cards that had 6 or 7 stars normally had passive abilities, much like Mythril Drone's Spellbinder (these included things like causing all of your creatures to reflect 30% of all damage taken, increasing all of your creatures' HP by 220% (resulting in some hilariously huge amounts of HP and ATK sometimes, like, in the millions), increasing all of your creatures' healing effectiveness by 300%, etc). They kind of implemented this by introducing Runes, but I feel as though it can be taken a step further.
- Introduce a conversion system. I have 196,000,000 gold just sitting around, and it would be really cool if I could just convert all of that into gems (obviously not a 1:1 conversion, that'd be so broken, resulting in many players suddenly becoming gem millionaires XD. A 1:10,000 (1 gem for every 10,000 gold) ratio seems a lot more fair. I'd happily trade in 196,000,000 gold for 19,600 gems, and because I generate 6,000,000 every day from Guild Maps alone, I would have no issue earning all of that back.)
- Add in a trading system. This one is iffy, because it can easily be exploited by those who have like 50 alts; however, a good workaround might be to make it available only to high level (80+) players. Another workaround would be to make it so that you had to trade cards of equal value (meaning, you would have to give a 5 star to get a 5 star).
- Add a disenchant and crafting system. I LOVE this feature in Hearthstone. You can basically just turn your unwanted cards into dust, and when you've saved up enough dust, you can craft any creature you want (as long as you have enough dust for it). I'd disenchant all of my level 0 Balthazars in a heartbeat so that I could craft an Aquarius or something.
Hopefully I made those reasons coherent enough. But I do understand your frustration, low deck variety is pretty annoying to me as well. Unfortunately, as far as Deck Heroes goes, it's just something that you have to deal with.
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Mar 9, 2016 23:22:58 GMT
Retreat QT x 2 Melded revive x 1-2 Melded recycle x 1-2 Melded bullseye+sacrifice x 2 Paragon Rare OP card 1-2 Same for all. These are the basic building blocks but you can still do a lot with them by weighting more toward one end of the spectrum or another. There is also kind of the equivalent to classes in heroes that determines how your entire deck operates and what it's win conditions are. The standard balanced mid range option that you listed works well but can be beat by slightly slower control options like a board presence Warlock deck for instance. The slower control options can be countered by quick tempo decks that blow up and disrupt their boards before they have a chance to come on line. The quick, high damage tempo decks can be countered by slightly slower balanced midrange options that still have enough presence to hold their own early but start to pull ahead more and more later with slightly more and more card advantage and staying power.
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Mar 9, 2016 23:28:20 GMT
I think one big problem is Warlock on one side of the spectrum is easily available but the poster child for the opposite side is Task which isn't and makes it harder to pull off the whole rock, paper, scissors thing. I could see agro Arbiter working pretty well though. She still gets good use of her ability vs low board counts and you don't really need to bog down your deck with multiple Paragons. I guess Oceanus could make for a pretty good agro hero too, especially vs a melded Taurus.
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Post by tanisomsford on Mar 10, 2016 3:49:41 GMT
I feel the biggest contributor to a boring meta are imbalanced skills.
Forgetting the cookie cutter cards, it really boils down to torment, revive, bullseye, dodge and immunity. Nearly all other skills in the he have now become USELESS. So it forces the player base to fall into the need for power creep. Soon there'll be a passive skill to lockout immunity, and permanent version of night slayer. Then another faction card with torment, and another card with a new version of revive, or perhaps even revive again. It doesn't make variety.
Tue OP is truly correct in pointing it out. As a MTG player of twenty years ago(the original beta edition), they evaluated the builds and every new set to come out ensured the skills ALL had some valid use, and yes the top decks in most tourney rounds lost a lot of the variety, but it was NEVER as one dimensional as DH has been for some time. As QT gets nerfed the meta will change, and the tip decks will be copies of that new meta. And the cycle continues.
And although the cards may be a little different here and there, the theme never changes. And we all know that all top players would just have dragonlord revive if they could get copies. They wouldn't waste their time on pontiff. He's just easy in GM.
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Post by tanisomsford on Mar 10, 2016 3:57:08 GMT
One thing blizzard did really cool back in the day was the ladder season. Only the newest power items could be obtained by being in the ladder. After the ladder is done, the ew ladder begins and all players start again at lv1, and their non ladder accounts can still play outside the ladder in tournament play and such, but are no longer eligible to obtain the rarest stuff. That style of play could foster a player ecosystem less focused on powercreep, and more focused on deck building with what the tier 2 options are out there. While every ladder change, new players come out with the rare items not obtainable outside the ladder. That would also foster a currency system of trading, or, better yet, auctions.
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Mar 10, 2016 4:36:12 GMT
I think this game might be a bit too slow paced and grindy for a ladder.
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Post by Sinister22✪NFS on Mar 10, 2016 6:40:24 GMT
adding more diverse could do the trick. Cookie cutter decks have become a high level standard that everyone knows not having similar cards would put you in a disadvantage. The advantage is super obvious though and early to mid game players do not even have a chance. I suggested that Revive should be limited to only 3 casts as well as OP skill cards. that way, they could offer a mystic to EVERYONE and not only to high end players. This will make the strategy with good enough luck to be able to be competitive.
Examples: Recycles: Limited to 3 casts Revive : Limited to 3 casts
That way, players would have to think of a more diversified strategy. Mystic will not have a so great impact anymore and thus can be offered to low level players. That will make it more balanced for early-mid-late game thus making the current cookie cutter decks a non-meta.
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Post by voldrox [BK] on Mar 10, 2016 17:36:52 GMT
I don't have a Revive and will never have one because I don't do boosters but for some reason I want Revive to stay as it is. It would be boring to defend against handicapped Revive creatures.
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Post by jckson992 on Mar 10, 2016 22:40:31 GMT
great post and I agree with all your points. I do agree that a trade system would be terrible unless you allow no alts
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Mar 11, 2016 4:21:15 GMT
They are working on adding more new unique skills and interactions to the game with each new creature released.
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Post by ℜ★Jaegybomb on Mar 11, 2016 4:22:37 GMT
We do need more unseals or stuff for F2Ps to grind though.
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Post by smash00 on Mar 19, 2016 13:40:20 GMT
I am not a big game player and not even close to any top players in any game, but DH (IGG) has a very bad sales/money flow strategy...
If I buy a hearthstone booster -> free of charge as I can easily get money in the game... the cards are much better then in DH... If I buy a hearthstone expand for 25$ -> I get better cards...and don't have to pay 500$ for a f***ing 1 5* card... If I play worldoftanks and decide to spend 50$ -> I get a top tier tank... and not a shitty 0,05 % chance to get it...
In other games you get something for your little money. In DH you get nothing for your low level money. You get something if You pay tons of cash which is the most stupidest thing I have ever seen.
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Post by ℜ★God on Mar 19, 2016 17:49:36 GMT
Agreed. Unfortunately, IGG shows no sign of changing their current sales schemes.
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Post by voldrox [BK] on Mar 19, 2016 18:57:24 GMT
Ok, lol, this is completely off topic but I have been seeing this so often but why do you guys exchange "commas" and "dots" while representing numbers. For example 5 million is 5,000,000 and people here write it 5.000.000 and for decimal system its 0.05% and so many times I see people write it as 0,05%. Sorry guys but I might be a little OCD on this but I have been ignoring this for months.
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Post by kvasac on Mar 19, 2016 18:59:47 GMT
In Eurooe it's different. Try in windows switching to other language and you'll see. Here in Croatia is , for decimal.
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Post by ℜ★God on Mar 19, 2016 19:39:12 GMT
Kvasac is right. America uses "." for it's decimals, while in Europe (and many other parts of the world) they use "," for decimals.
American System: "5 thousand point 36" = 5,000.36 European System: "5 thousand point 36" = 5.000,36
Really confusing sometimes. Honestly, I think that the American system just looks more aesthetically pleasing, but that's subjective, I guess.
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