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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 17:55:38 GMT
On the flip side, this thread can create more harm than good; inspiring more guilds to operate the same due to the benefits.
I say delete it. The OP and his crew need to realize that the game has set parameters to work in, and this is one of them - unethical but perfectly legal.
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Post by rafutela✪NFS on Oct 15, 2015 18:35:44 GMT
Warning people is ok.
Accusing people and let a thread become a fight between 2 people isn't.
ImperialDarkness did the right thing about lock that post, good job.
BTW asking for a superior is so funny, somehow you want to dodge an argument with him. This is not a company (market for example) who want to please you and tell his employee to do so no matter who's right. IMO, that's where you lost your credibility to me ...
Back to topic, I'll not be has gentle has people seems to be in this thread, but it's a player responsability to know where he goes. Learnt it the hard way, you'll not make the mistake twice (I hope so)
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Post by ittadakimaas on Oct 15, 2015 19:00:54 GMT
This sounds like some predatory behavior that can dampen the growth of the DH community. As some minor precautions I suggest: 1) Joining a Guild with a shard distribution system I think this problem is a little more fundamental, and occurs more when you don't have any info or line of communication with the guild leaders -- in such cases its hard to know (and perhaps secondary) whether there is a shard distribution system... I like this idea! Unfortunately, you are probably right about this. But it will still help at least some people, and raise general awareness. I was a guest browser to this forum for several days before I joined, and a thread like this would definitely have caught my eye even as a non-forum regular.
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Post by ittadakimaas on Oct 15, 2015 19:07:45 GMT
Back to topic, I'll not be has gentle has people seems to be in this thread, but it's a player responsability to know where he goes. Learnt it the hard way, you'll not make the mistake twice (I hope so) I disagree with this. While some players may learn from this experience (I wouldn't call it a mistake though) and move on to better guilds, many may not -- it can be extremely discouraging, to the point of quitting. I think its important to have a good in-game culture for everyone's sake in the long run. Even leaving aside the ethical aspect of it (which is not something that should be ignored), keeping a game new-user friendly and minimizing bad experiences strongly affects the sustenance of the game itself. An unfriendly game with lots of spammers / hackers / unethical practices / exploitative behaviour is likely to have a much slower growth in user pool that can even result in an early demise.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 19:19:48 GMT
There are many exploits in this game, so don't be hypocrites. I'm sure many of you are familiar with, and probably use some of the following:
- Wight on guild maps - Kitsune on guild maps - Getting kicked from a guild for more attempts - Defiler in Grimiore - Raid decks (exploiting low level players)
Guilty anyone? So don't propose Name and Shame when you are not exactly the Mother Theresa of Deck Heroes.
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Post by Somar [BK] on Oct 15, 2015 19:21:24 GMT
Back to topic, I'll not be has gentle has people seems to be in this thread, but it's a player responsability to know where he goes. Learnt it the hard way, you'll not make the mistake twice (I hope so) I have to agree with this. People trying to exploit others in online gaming is nothing new. Pretty much every online game has it's own version of similar stuff. Although people that exploit others should be more conscious about what they are doing, players that fall for this are not without fault as well. It's not easy to spot if u are new to the game, true. But if u are in a guild with no contact whatsoever with leaders and u don't do anything to fix that and just stay there, it's always a gamble and entirily on you if things go wrong. Either successfully contact someone in the guild or just leave and look somewhere else.
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Post by Somar [BK] on Oct 15, 2015 19:30:01 GMT
There are many exploits in this game, so don't be hypocrites. I'm sure many of you are familiar with, and probably use some of the following: - Wight on guild maps - Kitsune on guild maps - Getting kicked from a guild for more attempts - Defiler in Grimiore - Raid decks (exploiting low level players) Guilty anyone? So don't propose Name and Shame when you are not exactly the Mother Theresa of Deck Heroes. Why is Wight or kitsune on guild maps or defiler on grimoire an exploit? The cards and skills are the same for everyone, if they don't work the way the devs intended it's up to them to fix it, not the players fault. Getting kicked form the guild for more attempts: could be consider exploit but honestly with the dmg u already can do in maps, not sure how good is clearing them even quicker, maps fall down pertty fast without it already, and if u are doing it for extra coins, it's hardly any game changing resource anyway Raid decks: this i agree counts as an exploit, but it's hardly a very harmfull one. Once u get raided once or twice and see 5k glory just vanish away it should be pretty straitforward thinking that you shouldn't hoard stuff others can take away. Hardly any of these "exploits" u mention can be considered the same as making players believe they are in a guild and then just dump them once they have done all the hard work for nothing in return.
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Post by pinpin on Oct 15, 2015 19:48:45 GMT
Just a reminder guys. This thread was just intended to raise awareness on this particular issue. It's not intended to name and shame anyone. We just feel that all new players should be aware of it and do as they like with the information. Each guild has their own way of running things and we respect that. Argue your points in relation to the topic and let's not make it personal which it's not meant to be.
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Post by ℳarty on Oct 15, 2015 21:08:35 GMT
Let's make something clear. We do our best as admins/moderators. We gain nothing doing it, but we believe our works help players so we do it anyway. Imperial did what he thought was the best to do at this point @ not letting a flame war happen.
Once a thread get closed, its done, end of the story.You got a problem with it? Please Pm an admins/mods about it, don't go on a public forums doubting the decisions, it ain't nice to the people's who do their best for YOU.
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Post by countzero on Oct 16, 2015 3:37:48 GMT
Let's make something clear. We do our best as admins/moderators. We gain nothing doing it, but we believe our works help players so we do it anyway. Imperial did what he thought was the best to do at this point @ not letting a flame war happen. Once a thread get closed, its done, end of the story.You got a problem with it? Please Pm an admins/mods about it, don't go on a public forums doubting the decisions, it ain't nice to the people's who do their best for YOU. Hey Marty and the other Mods, Firstly, I respect your work, I've been a mod on a couple of forums and know what a thankless task it can be. I also know that anyone in a position of authority has a duty to use that authority with some restraint. If you go back to my original post I very carefully avoided calling out the mod that deleted the thread, and even when he made a threatening comment on here I sidestepped the issue and began to pursue it through just the means you describe. My point here, and the point of the original guy who posted about this was to inform people who might get caught up in the practice of energy theft and to voice an objection to it that I hoped would be echoed by others in this community. When the other poster started his thread he did not know who he was confronting. He was attacked on that thread. I didn't see him resort to anything remotely resembling flaming, although I can not go back to look at it now. I find it strange that someone could come onto a thread where a player is describing their own first hand experience and attack them, and then rather than the antagonist being censured the entire thread was shut down. I believe the person that began the aggression on that thread also sent unpleasant personal messages to the original poster who then asked a moderator for help. It is very hard to speak truth to power, he began this not knowing how deep into the core of Deck Heroes this ran. I know a lot more about who is involved than he did, and I am willing to speak out against those people. You have the power to silence me here, but not the power to stop me and others working against this abuse of unsuspecting players. I continue to be happy to enter into civil discourse about this, Zero of The Nameless.
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Post by raywinx on Oct 16, 2015 3:41:27 GMT
My post is not exactly related to stealing energy type guild. But you should bail out from the guild that falls under these scenario. This is my personal opinion and I have faced this with my first Guild.
1) Guild master cannot be contacted through external Apps like LINE or does not respond to your in game messages 2) Like ittadakimaas mentioned stocking up energy and energy has reached its max limit. But maps are not opened. 3) Having members like 20 or 30+ but only 5 are less members are active and rest are inactive for months or weeks
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Post by orgoth on Oct 16, 2015 3:57:46 GMT
My post is not exactly related to stealing energy type guild. But you should bail out from the guild that falls under these scenario. This is my personal opinion and I have faced this with my first Guild. 1) Guild master cannot be contacted through external Apps like LINE or does not respond to your in game messages 2) Like ittadakimaas mentioned stocking up energy and energy has reached its max limit. But maps are not opened. 3) Having members like 20 or 30+ but only 5 are less members are active and rest are inactive for months or weeks this is why i left my old guild it has since been sold off to one of them guild deals.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 5:36:09 GMT
This sounds like some predatory behavior that can dampen the growth of the DH community. As some minor precautions I suggest: 1) Joining a Guild with a shard distribution system 2) Avoid Guilds that stock more contribution than what's needed to open Map 6 Sadly I've got a feeling that most of the victims of this practice probably don't use this forum (and instead use the search feature). The problem is contribution, guild cannot aquire contribution fast enough so they prey on small guilds with lots of contribution. Pros You have all maps open Cons They get all shards and gold Realistically all it does it make the strong stronger and the new younger players weaker. Once all the energy and good shards are gone your left with 9 shards, maps you can't open or beat. Also it has been know that players go into small guilds and ask for leadership temporarily and then boot the original people.
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Post by drakkan on Oct 16, 2015 8:23:35 GMT
I remember my first month in Deck Heroes. I was in a guild that took over 1 month to clear map1. Then at beginning of map2 I got kicked from the Guild for reasons unknown to me.
But that just did me a favour, as I looked to other guilds and went to top10 guild (as lvl63) and my progress exploded..
Whatever was the reason, they actually did me a favor .. what good we have from contribution if we cannot clear map in 1 month ..
Imho -> players who are good, will realize that they can have more from the guild in a 1-2 months, and those who dont really like the game will stop playing anyway ... there are players that even Royals wouldn't be able to make something of them..
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Post by sylava1 on Oct 16, 2015 8:31:59 GMT
I woke up one day and noticed i was guild master. I have to say it is tempting to kick everyone and take the 20 paragon shards.
But i took my responsibilty and try to manage the guild in the best interest of everyone. I think i do a good job because noone is leaving and we make good progress. Just don't have room on my old phone to get that stupid line app
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Post by Somar [BK] on Oct 16, 2015 8:47:30 GMT
I woke up one day and noticed i was guild master. I have to say it is tempting to kick everyone and take the 20 paragon shards. But i took my responsibilty and try to manage the guild in the best interest of everyone. I think i do a good job because noone is leaving and we make good progress. Just don't have room on my old phone to get that stupid line app communication is an important part. Although a responsible guild leader can make things work without it. But it's always a risk for the player to have no contact with the leaders and they should always look for that and avoid things like this to happen. I actually have players in my guild to whom I never talked. Some have been with us for 3+ months and as long as they are doing their part and contributing I have no issues with that. But it's a mighty leap of faith from their part if u ask me.
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Post by ÐARҞNESS on Oct 16, 2015 10:02:19 GMT
Let's make something clear. We do our best as admins/moderators. We gain nothing doing it, but we believe our works help players so we do it anyway. Imperial did what he thought was the best to do at this point @ not letting a flame war happen. Once a thread get closed, its done, end of the story.You got a problem with it? Please Pm an admins/mods about it, don't go on a public forums doubting the decisions, it ain't nice to the people's who do their best for YOU. Hey Marty and the other Mods, Firstly, I respect your work, I've been a mod on a couple of forums and know what a thankless task it can be. I also know that anyone in a position of authority has a duty to use that authority with some restraint. If you go back to my original post I very carefully avoided calling out the mod that deleted the thread, and even when he made a threatening comment on here I sidestepped the issue and began to pursue it through just the means you describe. My point here, and the point of the original guy who posted about this was to inform people who might get caught up in the practice of energy theft and to voice an objection to it that I hoped would be echoed by others in this community. When the other poster started his thread he did not know who he was confronting. He was attacked on that thread. I didn't see him resort to anything remotely resembling flaming, although I can not go back to look at it now. I find it strange that someone could come onto a thread where a player is describing their own first hand experience and attack them, and then rather than the antagonist being censured the entire thread was shut down. I believe the person that began the aggression on that thread also sent unpleasant personal messages to the original poster who then asked a moderator for help. It is very hard to speak truth to power, he began this not knowing how deep into the core of Deck Heroes this ran. I know a lot more about who is involved than he did, and I am willing to speak out against those people. You have the power to silence me here, but not the power to stop me and others working against this abuse of unsuspecting players. I continue to be happy to enter into civil discourse about this, Zero of The Nameless. I did not make a threatening comment, I posted a warning for people who intend to attack other members, did you actually read my post, or did you just decide to post without putting any thought to it? I deleted the last thread because it was getting out of hand, if I see anyone attacking anyone else on this thread, there will be consequences. Now tell me how that applies to you or the poster of the other thread? Or did you intend to go around attacking forum members on your post?
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Post by dbreezy✪NFS on Oct 16, 2015 13:52:55 GMT
I contacted IGG about this about 3 weeks ago and they told me it was up to the players choice what they allow for their guilds. IGG allows Guild Hopping Guilds to Be Stolen Discouragement of younger guilds and players You should never give anyone a GM/Captain spot if you choose to let them help you unlock maps. They will steal your guild. We here at TGF do not partake in Guild Hopping/Stealing Guilds or Using New members Energy/Guild. Until they change Contribution so you can have multiple good maps open weekly it will never change. The guild hopping isn't exactly as you make it sound. You can basically only jump to 1 new guild per week without risk of being "locked out" of applying to guilds. Guilds can't be stolen either unless their leader is inactive. I'm also not sure how this would really discourage young guilds either other than the fact that there are already several established guilds that are available. Even the discouragement of players, I dispute this in that if a player randomly joins a guild and gets kicked after contributions, they probably didn't have a great knowledge base about this game yet. I don't really see how someone who does their homework on Deck Heroes could fall into this. It's a fairly social community...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 14:08:42 GMT
I contacted IGG about this about 3 weeks ago and they told me it was up to the players choice what they allow for their guilds. IGG allows Guild Hopping Guilds to Be Stolen Discouragement of younger guilds and players You should never give anyone a GM/Captain spot if you choose to let them help you unlock maps. They will steal your guild. We here at TGF do not partake in Guild Hopping/Stealing Guilds or Using New members Energy/Guild. Until they change Contribution so you can have multiple good maps open weekly it will never change. The guild hopping isn't exactly as you make it sound. You can basically only jump to 1 new guild per week without risk of being "locked out" of applying to guilds. Guilds can't be stolen either unless their leader is inactive. I'm also not sure how this would really discourage young guilds either other than the fact that there are already several established guilds that are available. Even the discouragement of players, I dispute this in that if a player randomly joins a guild and gets kicked after contributions, they probably didn't have a great knowledge base about this game yet. I don't really see how someone who does their homework on Deck Heroes could fall into this. It's a fairly social community... You can join up to 3 guilds a week. I didn't clarify much in this post exactly what I meant. I wrote a post just recently explaining more on taking advantage of young players and guild stealing. And as for a social community. New players who join and go to Places like World Chat don't really get help. And if you try to find resources in game it brings you to the IGG forum or FB which niether are really useful.
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Post by storyteller on Oct 16, 2015 15:50:18 GMT
I'm glad that whoever raised this issue posted it, as I didn't even know this was a thing. Can't comment on the previous thread since I missed it, but with respect to the mods exercising restraint, I think the fact that this thread is allowed to stand even though one of the mods has been called out shows that there is restraint. In general, I think this forum is moderated well, and I appreciate the work of the mods. Thank you! It's also the best place to get info and help on deck heroes.
I think it's a good idea for new players to know that this happens, and that there are other guilds to join if they are so inclined. When anyone first starts playing, there are going to be lots of ways that they can be taken advantage of and not realize it. It takes a while to even realize that energy is like a big deal for guilds.
I remember that in an old thread one of the guilds explained why they had the requirements they had and how they did shard distribution. I think that would be a really helpful thing for the guilds that are recruiting to have in the guild section. I feel like a lot of the better guilds are probably represented on this forum, since it shows they are willing to participate in a community and offer help to others.
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Post by berseker on Oct 16, 2015 16:11:14 GMT
Hey breezy bro!
I can think if some situations where some guilds can take advantage of new players: here is one:
Imagine this: a member of a xxxxx guild decide to open a new guild using his alter account in deck heores...lest call that guild "aaa". That guild recruits players of lev. 20+ (so...players playing for 2-3 days?) And they start contributing energy to the guild. Their decks dont have the strenght to take down map 1 and they just scracth 1-1 a little....and they keep contributing for a couple of weeks....then...when the guild master see that the guild has collected over 100k energy kicks everybody out of guild (members of lev. 30-35 i suppose)....and then all members of guild "xxxxx" come to guild aaa and open the maps and take all the shards available...and the newbies kicked out start thinking what they did wrong....
So...how many times do you think this is happening in game?
And this is just one way to take advantage of newbies.
Thats why this thread is important to new guyz....cause when the word spreads out...less people will be "used".
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Post by SoaponaRope [BK] on Oct 16, 2015 16:32:29 GMT
Before getting too up in arms, please let me reiterate that this can be used and often is used in a positive way. There are of course some who are spoiling the system in a very greedy way.
Any Guild that has 4 maps currently OPEN is not doing much damage at all. This may be deliberate and careful work, trying to hit 100k damage on every map, but the math has been done and no guild can sustain more than 10 heavy hitters (100k dmg) on a regular 6-map rotation - the contribution just doesn't add up. When you add in 1-2 mil damage dealers, it's painfully obvious that the original guild system is not designed with any logic what-so-ever.
The benefits of 1-2 million damage dealers is that their work equates to Guild Credits and Shards/Cards for everyone who participates. Guilds that are nearing max contribution are very wise to invite a handful of powerful players to help them turn that contribution into Credits and Shards. This can be a very beneficial thing for everyone, and it can also occur naturally - 1 or 2 super heavy hitters with 30-50 active players is sustainable.
It depends on where you're at in the game. GCredits become increasingly devalued in higher gameplay - and high end players are looking for multiple copies of 5-star Creatures as well as the gold required to Evolve and Meld. For lowbies that don't do anything and don't even know how the Bounty system works, they're still getting greatly increased GCredits which are a huge help in quickly getting 4-star Heroes. This is no more exploitative than power-leveling in any other game.
That being said, this can obviously become very shady. Kicking people out of a guild so that 100% of the shards can be solo-farmed is highly unethical. It's also a huge waste of potential GCredits for lowbies that could've really used it. As someone who likes to maximize efficiency, this is the most cringe-worthy part of this.
As others have said, the best you can do is try to get a feeling for your guild / GM and what their intentions are. Realize that guild-hopping does not automatically equate to exploitation unless the rewards are being unfairly distributed (which is a personal call on your part.) And finally, if this does happen to you then that really sucks, but maybe it'll open the door for better things in your future. There are many great guilds on these forums looking for more players!
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Post by countzero on Oct 16, 2015 17:21:18 GMT
Awesome, we're getting some great dialogue going on this.
I want to address one point with an analogy. This is in response to lots of people saying- the players who fall for this are stupid and essentially deserve it. I see this as a form of victim blaming that ignores the actions of the thief.
Analogy. You are a 12 year old who is not yet wise in the ways of the world (you also have no friends, sorry). At a mall you sit down to eat your over processed 'burger' but realise you didn't get a napkin to wipe the ketchup and drool from your chin. You get up to grab one and leave the new Yeezys you bought at the table. When you get back they have been taken, obviously. Are you to blame because you don't yet know that there are people out there who will take you for whatever they can get and not care at all about you? Or are the people who took the shoes the ones committing a crime?
I'm sitting at the next table and sticking out my foot to trip the thief, or telling the kid, "Don't leave those there man, they'll get stolen."
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Post by countzero on Oct 16, 2015 17:24:21 GMT
I deleted the last thread because it was getting out of hand, if I see anyone attacking anyone else on this thread, there will be consequences. I apologise to ImperialDarkness and accept that he did not intend this comment to be threatening. Sorry.
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Post by megapuncher on Oct 16, 2015 19:19:12 GMT
In my opinion, this thread is totally misleading. Where is "stealing" in this case? OP sounds like big bad guilds are forcing slave labor onto poor newbs, pushing them work hard night and day to raise contributions and then kicking them on the spot with nothing in return? BS... Newb is contributing energy to the guild, getting back gold, guild credits, 3-4* critters and shards for maps 1-3 (usually open). Then newb is getting kicked from the guild when contributions reached maximum. 1. Newb still has all of his collected goodies. 2. If, at the time of energy spending, newb is not a part of the guild, energy would be wasted. 3. Being kicked, newb has only 1 hour to find another guild to join and repeat same process. 4. Newb's is raising his overall level, GM maps strength, etc. You want to be a part of bigger/better guild? Communicate. With current "GOOD" player shortage, there will be no problem to join "bigger" family. You won't be in primary guild, but you will be part of something bigger. Work your way up. You want to have access to shards from maps 5-6? Besides contributing energy to the guild, what else have you brought to the table? GM Deck doing 2M+ damage? GW top 500 rank or better? You are Einstein of strategy? Spent one hundred billion dollars on this game? If yes - check communicate rant, no guild would kick you out. If no - you are newb and it is not the bad word. You are working your way up. You will be there. Raise your level, raise your deck power, communicate - any guild will take you in. Do not forget, if there are 6 maps unlocked - then "BAD" guild contributed much more energy to get them open, members are having GM decks capable of going through those maps fast, worked hard to get that guild established. Sure there might be guilds that are not opening 1-3 maps. Tyrant GM. Whatever. But in no case this practice can be called "stealing". The only awareness you need to raise is one's lack of communication.
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Post by pinpin on Oct 16, 2015 19:30:21 GMT
Guild hopping imo is very effective if done right. I know guilds that develop new players by having them farm shards from the first 3 guildmaps while the higher level players farm from maps 4-6. Then they swap guilds and continue on. They also use alts. to shore up any energy deficiencies. With the option of running alt. accounts there really shouldn't be a need to use unsuspecting new players for their time and energy and then treating them unfairly. Heck, you can have a solid group of 50 core players with 1 alt. account each and you can have your main accounts jump to the map that has energy generated by your alts.
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Post by ℳarty on Oct 16, 2015 19:54:51 GMT
I'm glad that whoever raised this issue posted it, as I didn't even know this was a thing. Can't comment on the previous thread since I missed it, but with respect to the mods exercising restraint, I think the fact that this thread is allowed to stand even though one of the mods has been called out shows that there is restraint. In general, I think this forum is moderated well, and I appreciate the work of the mods. Thank you! It's also the best place to get info and help on deck heroes. I think it's a good idea for new players to know that this happens, and that there are other guilds to join if they are so inclined. When anyone first starts playing, there are going to be lots of ways that they can be taken advantage of and not realize it. It takes a while to even realize that energy is like a big deal for guilds. I remember that in an old thread one of the guilds explained why they had the requirements they had and how they did shard distribution. I think that would be a really helpful thing for the guilds that are recruiting to have in the guild section. I feel like a lot of the better guilds are probably represented on this forum, since it shows they are willing to participate in a community and offer help to others. Thanks a lot for the kind words. As a fan forums, we try to stay out of this kind of potential "drama". Simply because we can't do anything about it, we are not affiliated with IGG. We will tolerate this thread, because it can be useful for new players as long as we don't see guilds name/players name being called out.
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Post by countzero on Oct 16, 2015 20:37:58 GMT
Thanks a lot for the kind words. As a fan forums, we try to stay out of this kind of potential "drama". Simply because we can't do anything about it, we are not affiliated with IGG. We will tolerate this thread, because it can be useful for new players as long as we don't see guilds name/players name being called out. Thanks for tolerating the thread Marty. I really appreciate that. You can do something about it by the way, speak out if you think the practice I describe is wrong. Not everyone does- that's fine. No Drama. The guilds who do this know who they are anyway so there is no need to call them out. I merely want to tell the cows they're burger meat but could be wild buffalo, roaming freely across the plains, or someones pet on an organic farm.
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Post by ittadakimaas on Oct 16, 2015 20:52:48 GMT
The guilds who do this know who they are anyway so there is no need to call them out. I merely want to tell the cows they're burger meat but could be wild buffalo, roaming freely across the plains, or someones pet on an organic farm. LMAO
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Post by dbreezy✪NFS on Oct 16, 2015 21:54:16 GMT
Hey breezy bro! I can think if some situations where some guilds can take advantage of new players: here is one: Imagine this: a member of a xxxxx guild decide to open a new guild using his alter account in deck heores...lest call that guild "aaa". That guild recruits players of lev. 20+ (so...players playing for 2-3 days?) And they start contributing energy to the guild. Their decks dont have the strenght to take down map 1 and they just scracth 1-1 a little....and they keep contributing for a couple of weeks....then...when the guild master see that the guild has collected over 100k energy kicks everybody out of guild (members of lev. 30-35 i suppose)....and then all members of guild "xxxxx" come to guild aaa and open the maps and take all the shards available...and the newbies kicked out start thinking what they did wrong.... So...how many times do you think this is happening in game? And this is just one way to take advantage of newbies. Thats why this thread is important to new guyz....cause when the word spreads out...less people will be "used". Hey bud! Yes I will admit this is somewhat shady at best, but again it speaks to the player's lack of knowledge about the game. If they just take the time to invest in the game by coming on forums or something, they would know that something is up with these situations (and not from topics like this). It definitely takes advantage of their naivety and you are probably right about them feeling used but these players would have likely not stayed in the game long in the first place (as seen by their lack of investment in gaining knowledge through forums and such) Side note for LordJackal: the guild hopping system doesn't really work like that cause it actually counts the first guild your in as the 1st move. So if you move from your current guild to a new guild, your count for the week will be at 2 (even though you only moved to 1 guild). I've been screwed by this in the past so just a heads up Edit: Megapuncher easily made the best post in the thread IMO (as seen above on this page)
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